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Eric_Hilbert
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Keep it respectful please.
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Isaiah45_9
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King David comes to mind… God’s grace is for God to give, we are completely undeserving by any works we might/might not do.I think he might be wittle biased, just my thought.
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Miriam1947
Guest
Isaih 45
Originally Posted by Holly3278
Personally, I recommend this:
catholicapologetics.info/…/catechism.htm
Its on Protestantism but it has a nice section on Martin Luther.
Q. What inference do you draw from all this?
A. That Protestantism cannot be the religion of Christ; because, if the Church of Christ required reformation, a God of purity and holiness would never have chosen such an immoral character—an apostate, a wholesale vow-breaker, a sacrilegious seducer—for that purpose.
Ahh, but King David loved God. Just because he was a sinner does not mean that he did not love God and that he did not know how grievously he sinned.
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Bilbo_Baggins_1
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Are you attempting to make the statement that Martin Luther did not love God?
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PbloPicasso
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I agree, that was uncalled for. Martin Luther loves God too. He just made decisions I wouldn’t subscribe to now.
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Bilbo_Baggins_1
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Which could easily be said of all of us. I am sure that I have made decisions with which he would more than likely not subscribe to or defend.
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Sherry_G
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May I take your response to indicate that you may in fact be thinking of coming home to the Catholic church so that we may all be one? why continue along the path that the Lutheran church is on now, when we can see that the church has divided within itself and part of the Lutheran church has gone off a cliff with regard to some of Christ’s teachings. We really all should be one as Jesus intended.
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Miriam1947
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Was this addressed to me?
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gcnuss
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I would like to add a couple of thoughts here. Like Jon, I am a Lutheran (although of a different stripe) who believes that the goal of the Reformation was – and is – unity rather than division. To that extent, the Reformation is not yet complete. I pray for the unity among all Christians, although I sometimes fear that will only become a reality when our Lord returns.
In spite of some early anti-Catholic teachings from the pastor who confirmed me (50+ years ago), I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic Church. However, there are some things that keep me from swimming the Tiber and I would be dishonest if I were to become Catholic while not accepting all Catholic teachings. For now I have to be satisfied with worshiping our Lord with all my heart and with seeking to foster good will among all my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Isaiah45_9
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This comes across with venom… When you make an exception comment like: “but…” it implies that the other doesn’t share the principle subject in reference to the but.
So you are saying that David didn’t know he was taking the life of a man to cover his indiscretion? That David had no idea of what he was doing and Luther, on the other hand, sinned with full knowledge and with purpose?
You have much to read, including David’s Psalms!
David’s reflections and prayers reflect the exact opposite you claim in regards to the knowledge of his own sins!
And btw, WE are all sinners.
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Miriam1947
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No I was comparing Luther as loving God as David did. But both were sinners. I think Luther suffered from scrupulosity but I have never thought that Luther did not love God.
Obviously I phrased that poorly.
To be honest, I too am uncomfortable with the path some American Lutherans have taken. I am uncomfortable with some even within my own Missouri Synod (a direction I would consider more toward American evangelicalism). I’m also convinced that Luther, were he alive today, would also express (perhaps more harshly, knowing his approach), similar concerns. That said, I still consider the Augsburg to be a confession I can make with a clear conscience, and certainlty that it is a truly catholic confession.
There are, for me personally, ways I could cross the Tiber, however. Among them; unity between Rome and Orthodoxy, an exceptance by Rome of the Augsburg Confession as a Catholic confessions, something Cardinal Ratzinger once alluded to, unity between my synod and Rome, or a complete swerve away from the confessions by my synod, leaving me Rome as my only alternative.
Jon
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AnAnglican
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JonNC and the rest of the gang:
Rome may not be your only option Jon: When I hopped on the Cantebury Trail 36 years ago, I was delighted… I have watched with growing horror as ECUSA amd other members of the Anglican Communion drifted down the road of liberal theoogy and stayed as long as I could before I jumped into the continuing curch movement. I can tell you the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) does accept the Augsberg Confession. There may be others too. However, before jumping ship much prayer must be given to what God would have you to do.If God had not fred me to leave, I would still be in ECUSA fighting the ongoing battle to get them to return to the origonal faith.
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Contarini
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How does an individual “coming home” make all Christians one? It just means that this particular Christian is now united to Christians from whom he was previously divided, divided from other Christians with whom he was previously united, and still divided from other Christians with whom he was always divided.
This is nothing but empty propaganda.
Also, Pope Benedict has repudiated the language of "return." (Of course, conservative Catholics put their spin on this, and you probably believe the spin. Note the interesting fact that EWTN differs from the Vatican’s own website in posting the “official” written text of B16’s 2005 Cologne address rather than the recorded version of what he said–the condemnation of “ecumenism of return” is in the latter and not the former.)
Edwin
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PbloPicasso
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Well, I’m saying it in a nicer way. The more orthodoxy way would be that Martin Luther loves God but that he made choices I believe were against God’s will.
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PbloPicasso
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Interesting point. Let me say this sincerely so that I don’t get jumped for saying it. But, I believe Martin Luther and even the next generation of Reformists, would harshly condemn the modern Lutheran Church in all its forms that I know about, including the more “conservative” ones. I believe they may have looked more Catholic than Catholicism looks today. I entered a Church in Germany once and thought I was in a Catholic Church. Everything appeared to be the same. I was amazed after I realized it was not a Catholic Church, but boy was it beautiful and reverent, more so that even my current parish.
Interesting. Other than the appearance of sanctuaries, what areas do you think they would condemn? I promise I won’t jump on you.
Jon
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meme1961
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The quote above is quite interesting to me, as it contains repeated assertions that each imply that scripture is a PART of and in SUPPORT of a human act: teaching, reproof or correction, and training in righteousness, but that it does not stand alone.
It seems clear to me that this passage is more supportive of the Church as expressed in the Roman Catholicism than the way it is used in Lutheran churches, especially the third and fourth generation of said churches.
Both the stories of the Bereans and the Thessalonians, in combination with our Lord’s command, suggest that the proper process is one of oral Catechesis, supported by Scripture, not one of the reading of scripture alone.
This stands in my mind as the beginning of the process of falsifying Sola Scriptura, one of the five solas of the Lutheran religion. While others have had good things to say about Martin Luther’s intelligence, training and experience, I find it hard to give much respect to a man who not only is the proximate cause of a fair amount of pain and grief in my own life, but whose scholarly work can so easily be called into question (one can falsify Sola Scriptura solely by use of formal linguistic theory with no recourse to Biblical quotation what so ever).
That doesn’t change the fact that as Christians we should be sympathetic about both his personal situation and the external events that were troubling him, nor does it remove our obligation to love him, and where possible, to see the good in him and acknowledge his good intentions. Which is what I believe the Holy Father was trying to say.
If it pains our Protestant brethren when we “take pot shots” at Luther, we should be careful not to go beyond the boundaries dictated by love and charity, but it is equally important that we not stray from our obligation to the truth. Martin Luther had good reason to reprove the Church, but he strayed from righteousness when he evolved from questioning that acts of members of the Church, into questioning doctrine.
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