Martin Luther

[Hesychios]

i think once the Bible was able to read and owned by many people, a reformation of some kind would have happened sooner or later anyway, whether it was Martin Luther or someone else. i am not saying that the Bible should not have been printed in different languages and for the common people to read, but it was a temptation for some to want to interpret the Holy Scripture their own way and not want to conform to what the Catholic Church taught.

I think your comments are generally correct. Often we are at the mercy of translators, so when we read scripture ‘in plain language’ we are reading the words chosen for us by the translator, and we get the sense of the meaning from that. There are also terms and phrases (and ideas) that will always be a bit vague, and perhaps unimportant. Once the ability to read becomes widespread there is an increasing likelihood that people will make their own interpretations of what they read and if they perceive contrast between what they think they have read in the scriptures and what they see all around them they are going to ask a lot of questions,

One can see from the Patristic literature that earlier Christians could often get different ideas out of the same scriptural passages, and in fact any or all of them might be correct in a given sense, they are not necessarily diametrically opposed comments.

However in Father Martin’s case he was not just a commoner who could be misled easily, he was employed by the church for purposes of examining scripture and teaching about it. He was a well educated Roman Catholic man born in the renaissance (had actually studied law before he became a professed religious) with continual access to the Holy Scripture, Patristic literature (at least the western corpus, with a heavy dose of Augustine, Anselm, etc.) and high-end spiritual guidance for many years. He was one of the Augustinian order’s rising stars.

It is certain that he could read the Vulgate in Latin and he seems to have read the original Greek, because he was able to translate the New Testament by himself. I am not sure about the Hebrew

Father Martin was awarded a Doctorate of Theology, traveled for his order and was appointed to the faculty of a prestigious Roman Catholic university.

He was ordained a priest by a Roman Catholic bishop.

 

[mark_a]

As far as continuing to use the name “Lutheran,” I imagine it was a case of people turning what was intended to be a slur into a badge of honor.

Much like the term Roman Catholic!

 

[mark_a]

Regarding Germany, even today it is still majority Catholic.

Hi Jon,

Do you have a source for us?

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

Do you have a source for us?

I misstated, Mark. I should have said plurality Catholic. According to the source below, it is 34% Catholic, 38% protestant, but that would include non-Lutheran protestants. There are more Catholics than Lutherans in Germany.

religioustolerance.org/rel_coun1.htm

Jon

 

[mark_a]

I misstated, Mark. I should have said plurality Catholic. According to the source below, it is 34% Catholic, 38% protestant, but that would include non-Lutheran protestants. There are more Catholics than Lutherans in Germany.

Still very surprising.

 

[Newbie2]

I often wonder what made Luther cross the line between wanting to reform the RCC and changing the doctrine.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Still very surprising.

Not at all, really. After living there for 2 years I could barely distinguish betwen Lutheran and Catholic. But I know from experience that Catholicism is going strong there.

 

[Hesychios]

Still very surprising.

Before the unification of East Germany into the Federal Republic, the Roman Catholic church was slightly larger in West Germany than the Protestant churches. However East Germany was mainly populated by Lutherans and Calvinists (and of course atheists and agnostics).

 

[hn160]

Regardless of whether the Church needed to be reformed or not (it did), the theological novelties of Martin Luther had no basis in the historical Church. And if the Lutherans on here think that Pope Benedict XVI somehow supports Martin Luther in toto, then they are seriously mistaken. The Pope knows that when Christ prayed for unity he meant it. He also knows that the logical consequence of Protestantism is atheism for society. If Luther was indeed restoring the true Gospel in Germany, then it would not be a country that is abandoning its Christian heritage.

No one is saying that the current pope is pro Luther, he at least read Luther, and at lest we know where he stands on Catholic dogma. The reason why Christianity is on the wane in both non-Catholic and Catholic circles of Europe is because of two World Wars and the Iron Curtain. The Lutheran Church with its Confessions is the correct exposition of Scripture and is the True Church in that it is in line with the per-Council of Trent Church. The Roman Catholic Church did not come into existence until after the Council of Trent.

 

[I_AM_THE_WAY]

we must look at what Christ said I am The Truth the Light and the Way. Man breaking away from the church he started does not stand very tall in the eyes of Christ. We must fully look at what he taught by example word and tradition passed on by the universal church ( catholic )

 

[Miriam1947]

No one is saying that the current pope is pro Luther, he at least read Luther, and at lest we know where he stands on Catholic dogma. The reason why Christianity is on the wane in both non-Catholic and Catholic circles of Europe is because of two World Wars and the Iron Curtain. The Lutheran Church with its Confessions is the correct exposition of Scripture and is the True Church in that it is in line with the per-Council of Trent Church. The Roman Catholic Church did not come into existence until after the Council of Trent.

 

[hn160]

I am glad that I made your day.

 

[jnpl1185]

No one is saying that the current pope is pro Luther, he at least read Luther, and at lest we know where he stands on Catholic dogma. The reason why Christianity is on the wane in both non-Catholic and Catholic circles of Europe is because of two World Wars and the Iron Curtain. The Lutheran Church with its Confessions is the correct exposition of Scripture and is the True Church in that it is in line with the per-Council of Trent Church. The Roman Catholic Church did not come into existence until after the Council of Trent.

I don’t know of any Lutheran who would agree with this. It is true that Lutherans believe that they are in line with the first five or so church councils, before the time that the Latin Church became corrupt in their eyes. And as the Book of Concord tries to demonstrate on multiple occasions, Lutherans agree that the Church Fathers are to be seen as authorities. But Trent occurred long after the original protest, so it doesn’t make any sense to say that Lutherans are in line with what they were protesting against.

But yes, the Lutheran reformers were trying to purify the church rather than “reform” it in the sense that they were trying to get rid of corruption and return Church teaching to a biblical and early church basis (they go to great lengths in the confessions to show that their doctrines are not “new”, but based in tradition and the writings of the Church fathers). Roman Catholics of course will not agree with this, as they interpret Augustine and Ambrose and so forth differently) but that seems to be the traditional confessional Lutheran view so far as I can tell.

 

[PbloPicasso]

I don’t know of any Lutheran who would agree with this. It is true that Lutherans believe that they are in line with the first five or so church councils, before the time that the Latin Church became corrupt in their eyes. And as the Book of Concord tries to demonstrate on multiple occasions, Lutherans agree that the Church Fathers are to be seen as authorities. But Trent occurred long after the original protest, so it doesn’t make any sense to say that Lutherans are in line with what they were protesting against.

I’m inclined to think that hn160 is merely joking, because his/her statements are ludicrous because they do not gibe with the real documented historical evidence of the Church…

 

[akasseb]

No one is saying that the current pope is pro Luther, he at least read Luther, and at lest we know where he stands on Catholic dogma. The reason why Christianity is on the wane in both non-Catholic and Catholic circles of Europe is because of two World Wars and the Iron Curtain. The Lutheran Church with its Confessions is the correct exposition of Scripture and is the True Church in that it is in line with the per-Council of Trent Church. The Roman Catholic Church did not come into existence until after the Council of Trent.

Which Lutheran body is the True Church? Is it only the Missouri Synod, or does it apply to all Lutherans? The Church founded by Christ is universal, and not composed of separate bodies with varying doctrines. And do you really believe that the Catholic Church came into existence after the Council of Trent? I hope you are not simply referring to the term Roman Catholic. If so, you have shown your true Lutheran colors by falling into the philosophy of nominalism (a major cause of the theological errors of the Reformation).

Luther simply invented much of his theology. He took out seven books of the Old Testament and put into doubt a quarter of the New Testament. He added words to the New Testament to fit his doctrines. He made significant errors regarding original sin and the state of original justice. The polemical and hateful nature of many of his letters is the opposite of the Christian gospel. He rejected 5 sacraments of the Church, and altered the doctrine of the Eucharist. Add to this his many psychological problems.

The Church at the time of Luther was in need of reform. Luther started with reform and quickly moved to rebellion. In so doing, he set in motion a dividing and subdividing Protestant world.

 

[PbloPicasso]

I’m inclined in my belief that many of the protesters were suffering from some sort of mental illness, e.g…, scrupulosity, depression, anxieties, Bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. In fact, I think many of the leaders that did such evil during their reign suffered from the same. Not all, just many. Medicine wasn’t as advanced during those times. Their triggers were many different types. For some it was seeing abuse by the Church leaders. Some of it was mere pride.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

The current CIA Factbook lists Germany as being 34% Catholic, 34% Lutheran, 3.7% Muslim, and 28.3% unaffiliated/other. If one were to judge from my mother’s time, I would say that neither Catholics nor Lutherans were doing a great job of bringing people to Christ.

 

[hn160]

I don’t know of any Lutheran who would agree with this. It is true that Lutherans believe that they are in line with the first five or so church councils, before the time that the Latin Church became corrupt in their eyes. And as the Book of Concord tries to demonstrate on multiple occasions, Lutherans agree that the Church Fathers are to be seen as authorities. But Trent occurred long after the original protest, so it doesn’t make any sense to say that Lutherans are in line with what they were protesting against.

But yes, the Lutheran reformers were trying to purify the church rather than “reform” it in the sense that they were trying to get rid of corruption and return Church teaching to a biblical and early church basis (they go to great lengths in the confessions to show that their doctrines are not “new”, but based in tradition and the writings of the Church fathers). Roman Catholics of course will not agree with this, as they interpret Augustine and Ambrose and so forth differently) but that seems to be the traditional confessional Lutheran view so far as I can tell.

In 1866 C. F. W. Walther presented an essay to the convention of the General Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Missouri, Ohio, and Other States, later known as the Missouri Synod. I hesitate even to name the essay’s title as it flies so in the face of twenty-first-century sensitivities. It was entitled “The Evangelical Lutheran Lutheran Church, The True Visible Church of God on Earth.” In it he presented 25 theses, defended them with the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions, and concluded in Thesis XXV: “In short, the Evangelical Lutheran Church has all the essential marks of the true visible church of God on earth, as they are found in no known fellowship of another name; it is therefore in no need of any reformation in doctrine.”13 Can you imagine someone speaking publicly like this today? Walther was saying that the Lutheran church is the pure and true church and that he was unaware of any other churches that are.

Preus, Klemet I. (2005-01-01). The Fire and the Staff (Kindle Locations 6597-6602). Concordia Publishing House.

 

[hn160]

Which Lutheran body is the True Church? Is it only the Missouri Synod, or does it apply to all Lutherans? The Church founded by Christ is universal, and not composed of separate bodies with varying doctrines. And do you really believe that the Catholic Church came into existence after the Council of Trent? I hope you are not simply referring to the term Roman Catholic. If so, you have shown your true Lutheran colors by falling into the philosophy of nominalism (a major cause of the theological errors of the Reformation).

Luther simply invented much of his theology. He took out seven books of the Old Testament and put into doubt a quarter of the New Testament. He added words to the New Testament to fit his doctrines. He made significant errors regarding original sin and the state of original justice. The polemical and hateful nature of many of his letters is the opposite of the Christian gospel. He rejected 5 sacraments of the Church, and altered the doctrine of the Eucharist. Add to this his many psychological problems.

The Church at the time of Luther was in need of reform. Luther started with reform and quickly moved to rebellion. In so doing, he set in motion a dividing and subdividing Protestant world.

Luther did not set it in motion, man being a fallen creature will take advantage of situations, hence Zwingli and Calvin. Also Rome was just as much at fault as Luther if not more.

 

[PbloPicasso]

The current CIA Factbook lists Germany as being 34% Catholic, 34% Lutheran, 3.7% Muslim, and 28.3% unaffiliated/other. If one were to judge from my mother’s time, I would say that neither Catholics nor Lutherans were doing a great job of bringing people to Christ.

That’s because the Big Butter Jesus preachers are drawing hoards of people closer to the light… the light that leads to a disarray of chaos as far away from truth as they can get, yet retain the name Jesus in their faith traditions. I’ve been to those Mega communities and I assure you they are far from teaching truth. The best thing they offer is a wonderful lounge with coffee and donuts and a gift store to shop in while you watch the “worship service” in action, that mainly consists of pop rock music with musicians leading the “show” and a bunch of over exaggerated claims of how they have reached out to so many. The Catholic Church gives more in charity than any other organization in the world. But you will not see this statistic proclaimed from the masses of those trying to tear it apart.

Lutherans, not the more liberal string of that belief, are more like Catholicism than the mega church trends filled with emotionalism masked as faith. That’s my perception. Is the Missouri Synod the more conservative branch?