Martin Luther

[Darran]

That’s because the Big Butter Jesus preachers are drawing hoards of people closer to the light… the light that leads to a disarray of chaos as far away from truth as they can get, yet retain the name Jesus in their faith traditions.

Exactly! How much damage is done because of them. Even Catholics here assume I must act they way they do when I mention anything of the seminary.

 

[Newbie2]

That’s because the Big Butter Jesus preachers are drawing hoards of people closer to the light… the light that leads to a disarray of chaos as far away from truth as they can get, yet retain the name Jesus in their faith traditions. I’ve been to those Mega communities and I assure you they are far from teaching truth. The best thing they offer is a wonderful lounge with coffee and donuts and a gift store to shop in while you watch the “worship service” in action, that mainly consists of pop rock music with musicians leading the “show” and a bunch of over exaggerated claims of how they have reached out to so many. The Catholic Church gives more in charity than any other organization in the world. But you will not see this statistic proclaimed from the masses of those trying to tear it apart.

Lutherans, not the more liberal string of that belief, are more like Catholicism than the mega church trends filled with emotionalism masked as faith. That’s my perception. Is the Missouri Synod the more conservative branch?

Seems that way, but I don’t know much about the Wisconsin Synod. Definitely more conservative than the ELCA, but they seem to have split, informally if not formally over the ordination of actively practicing homosexual pastors. That’s something, IMHO, that we will never see in the LCMS.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Pblo, no disagreement here about mega-churches. That said, my son-in-law is a member of the largest Catholic parish in Virginia, about 20,000 families. I am still looking for the coffee shop and the gift shop. It is not the size of a church per se, but the teachings. As Saint Paul says in Phillipians:
DRC: Philippians Chapter 1

[15] Some indeed, even out of envy and contention; but some also for good will preach Christ.
[16] Some out of charity, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
[17] And some out of contention preach Christ not sincerely: supposing that they raise affliction to my bands.
[18] But what then? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

As to the conservatism of the denominations, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is considered the most liberal, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod more conservative, and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod the most conservative. These are the three largest of the Lutheran bodies in the United States.

 

[Newbie2]

As to the conservatism of the denominations, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is considered the most liberal, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod more conservative, and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod the most conservative. These are the three largest of the Lutheran bodies in the United States.

OT, what do you see as the major differences between the WELS and LCMS? Like I wrote, I don’t know much about the WELS; I used to be LCMS.

 

[JonNC]

OT, what do you see as the major differences between the WELS and LCMS? Like I wrote, I don’t know much about the WELS; I used to be LCMS.

Not speaking for OT, but my understanding is the our different views of fellowship. WELS is much less inclined to interaction with other Christians. In the ecumeincal dialogues, for example, it appears to me that, while the LCMS is often reluctant to sign on to joint Catholic Lutheran statements, at least we show up to talk about it. The WELS doesn’t seem interested even in that.
Beyond this, I’m not sure.

Jon

 

[hn160]

OT, what do you see as the major differences between the WELS and LCMS? Like I wrote, I don’t know much about the WELS; I used to be LCMS.

Some of the differences between WELS and the LC-MS are: Church Fellowship, The Office of the Holy Ministry and when the Body and Blood of Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

 

[PbloPicasso]

What are the ties to the original German Lutheran church?

 

[PbloPicasso]

In a way, Luther’s dissent made it possible fore people like me to live. The Church was in a bad habit of pushing people into death situations back then. They called it heresy, and then supported them being killed. Even one of the Church’s most famous Saints, St. Thomas More, had people burned at the stake.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Newbie2, the differences are in the degree of ecumenism, as JonNC mentioned and in church governance. While the LC-MS allows the parish to decide if women can have a vote in church affairs , this is not permitted in WELS.

Curiously, a couple who went to church with us for a while went to Wisconsin to visit the wife’s family. They attended a WELS church, and identified themselves as members of an ELCA congregation. They were allowed to commune, but were asked several times if they were LC-MS. LC-MS members apparently were not allowed to commune there. Go figure.

 

[Darran]

In a way, Luther’s dissent made it possible fore people like me to live. The Church was in a bad habit of pushing people into death situations back then. They called it heresy, and then supported them being killed. Even one of the Church’s most famous Saints, St. Thomas More, had people burned at the stake.

Actually, heresy laws were a localized thing. It was up to the leader of the country, not the Church.

St Thomas More was a heroic martyr. People at the time were in full knowledge of what would have them burnt at the stake and were also given a chance to live. If they wanted to die this death for their heresy, they are fully deserving of it.

The Lutheran controversy had now spread throughout Europe and, with some reluctance, More was drawn into it. His controversial writings are mentioned below in the list of his works, and it is sufficient here to say that, while far more refined than most polemical writers of the period, there is still a certain amount that tastes unpleasant to the modern reader.
…
As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More’s attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his “Apologia” (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy (i.e. capital punishment - my note LR) during his whole term of office.

Also, the EWTN article

 

[PbloPicasso]

Actually, heresy laws were a localized thing. It was up to the leader of the country, not the Church.

St Thomas More was a heroic martyr. People at the time were in full knowledge of what would have them burnt at the stake and were also given a chance to live. If they wanted to die this death for their heresy, they are fully deserving of it.

Also, the EWTN article

I love it when people try to justify wrong for a wrong. I’m fully aware of the culture of the time and understand the wrongs they did for a wrong. Christianity did not grow in the midst of justifying killing others for their faith. That is was Muslims justify. In Christianity, even Jesus tells the disciples to leave them alone. At worst he says to not have anything to do with them.

Further, it’s a known fact that the Pope wrote to the leaders of the countries and told them to use even their death penalty if necessary. “If necessary” means do it if they don’t comply. These people did not kill, rape or whatever. In fact, many of them were opposing the grave sinfulness occurring among the clergy, including the sinfulness of higher ups in the clergy. The sinfulness of man is not the way to judge the Church, but it is a way to judge the effects of seriously tainted men running the Church.

 

[JonNC]

Some of the differences between WELS and the LC-MS are: Church Fellowship, The Office of the Holy Ministry and when the Body and Blood of Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

Hey hn,
What do they believe in regards these two things?

On the Eucharist, they aren’t receptionist, are they?

Jon

 

[Darran]

I love it when people try to justify wrong for a wrong. I’m fully aware of the culture of the time and understand the wrongs they did for a wrong. Christianity did not grow in the midst of justifying killing others for their faith. That is was Muslims justify. In Christianity, even Jesus tells the disciples to leave them alone. At worst he says to not have anything to do with them.

Further, it’s a known fact that the Pope wrote to the leaders of the countries and told them to use even their death penalty if necessary. “If necessary” means do it if they don’t comply. These people did not kill, rape or whatever. In fact, many of them were opposing the grave sinfulness occurring among the clergy, including the sinfulness of higher ups in the clergy. The sinfulness of man is not the way to judge the Church, but it is a way to judge the effects of seriously tainted men running the Church.

Not killing, law. Just as a dangerous man needs to be restrained in order not to put civilians in danger, a person with a dangerous doctrine causes more damage to a person than any knife can, a real death of the spirit. That is my explaination, not neccesarily theirs. It had to be a matter that threatened the peace and safety of the commonwealth. It was their times and their laws, different than ours. They meant well. Which pope was this btw?

 

[PbloPicasso]

Not killing, law. Just as a dangerous man needs to be restrained in order not to put civilians in danger, a person with a dangerous doctrine causes more damage to a person than any knife can, a real death of the spirit. That is my explaination, not neccesarily theirs. It had to be a matter that threatened the peace and safety of the commonwealth. It was their times and their laws, different than ours. They meant well. Which pope was this btw?

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but this is not your analogy to claim. It’s one that I’ve heard over many years. It’s a canned speech, one which is derived from a lack of a well formed conscience that many cradle Catholics are afraid to assert. The facts are what they are, not explanation in the world can justify what was done in today’s standards. However, people didn’t really seem to know better back then. The Church was fearful of a wide spread outbreak of dissent, which as you put it placed many in fear of eternal damnation. That continues to be true today, however, the Church leaders have learned from those mistakes. That is partly why the the Church is hesitant today to take extreme precautions so that further provocation is at a minimum. You see, today, communications allows instantaneous information to be distributed over vast geographic regions. Any inkling of a sign of abuse spreads like wildfire. People have become intolerant of the Church because of the intolerance of leadership in the Church of past centuries.

It would be better to understand the history and to realize why things were done the way there were of yesteryear as well as to understand why the Church no longer allows those same methods to take place today. Don’t forget the change or improved understanding of human nature and the ill effects of past crimes on today’s treatments.

Let’s not derail this into a conversation on just this issue. I’m trying to grapple with the entire salvation issue that predates Martin Luther, through his era and up to today. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[hn160]

Hey hn,
What do they believe in regards these two things?

On the Eucharist, they aren’t receptionist, are they?

Jon

When it comes to the Office of the Holy Ministry, every member is a minister. If need be a layperson could celebrate Holy Communion.
When it comes to Holy Communion, they tend to believe the Body and Blood of Christ is present in the bread and wine at the moment of receiving the bread and wine.

 

[Ginger2]

St Thomas More was a heroic martyr. People at the time were in full knowledge of what would have them burnt at the stake and were also given a chance to live. If they wanted to die this death for their heresy, they are fully deserving of it.

Which is why our ancestors immigrated to the USA. So we could worship without fear of persecution.

Your comment makes me wonder, …do you still feel it would be acceptable for the church to promote burning at the steak or beheading for those who worship or believe differently than you? Is that how you feel?

There is a another group who feel that way today.

I have never thought threats were a good means of keeping people in or bringing them into the church. Just my opinion…

 

[PbloPicasso]

Which is why our ancestors immigrated to the USA. So we could worship without fear of persecution.

Your comment makes me wonder, …do you still feel it would be acceptable for the church to promote burning at the steak or beheading for those who worship or believe differently than you? Is that how you feel?

There is a another group who feel that way today.

I have never thought threats were a good means of keeping people in or bringing them into the church. Just my opinion…

Exactly what I’ve been driving at. My wife is one of 8 from a Protestant family, everyone other than her now are Protestant. I’m only one of 3. However, my mother is 1 of 10 and all of her siblings as well as her are/were Protestant. After crunching the numbers there are approximately 95% Protestants in our family. It’s almost as if you are condoning that its okay to put my family to death.

Try it! Watch a massive rebellion rise up against you. They may not have the fullness of truth in their faith tradition, but they are very good and decent people in comparison to Catholics in general.

 

[adrift]

Exactly what I’ve been driving at. My wife is one of 8 from a Protestant family, everyone other than her now are Protestant. I’m only one of 3. However, my mother is 1 of 10 and all of her siblings as well as her are/were Protestant. After crunching the numbers there are approximately 95% Protestants in our family. It’s almost as if you are condoning that its okay to put my family to death.

Try it! Watch a massive rebellion rise up against you. They may not have the fullness of truth in their faith tradition, but they are very good and decent people in comparison to Catholics in general.

Wow! This is so judgemental. I find there are good people of every faith. I wouldn’t dare say that one group is more decent than another:nope: As for those who came here for religious freedom, it was only for their beliefs. They did not wish to grant the same freedom to others.

During a time of colonization England and the rest of Europe were in the throes of monumental religious controversies. The religious tension was more than just Catholic and Protestant; Puritans, Presbyterians, Quakers, Methodists, Baptists and others all had their own particular forms of worship and systems of belief. People who came to America in the 17th and 18th centuries were not seeking land of religious freedom for all so much as a land where they could practice their own form of religion free of interference from rival denominations. One overriding theme of religion in colonial America was hatred of everything Catholic…

 

[PbloPicasso]

What a fitting username.

And for those seeking refuge with intent to remove freedom from Catholics, I say the same. A person regards killing my Protestants as acceptable. You seem to condone the same thing. Protestants also are guilty of similar evils in history, no doubt. But 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**GENERAL WARNING

Okay…I’m going to assume that some of you are having a bad day…
I reeeaaly don’t like giving out so many infractions.
So, how about we police ourselves?

RESPECT AND CHARITY PLEASE.**