Martin Luther

[Ani_Ibi]

does the term “The Spanish inquisition” ring a bell?

Yes, indeed it does. It seems to be one of those a-nod-is-as-good-as-a-wink moments for folks who hate the Church but who don’t feel particularly inspired to find out exactly what happened during the Spanish Inquisition. Nice try. But not good enough.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Be sure to bring up Luther’s writings about killing the Jews and the “Romanists.”

And his statments that witches are to be burned.

 

[LutheranDK]

Yes, indeed it does. It seems to be one of those a-nod-is-as-good-as-a-wink moments for folks who hate the Church but who don’t feel particularly inspired to find out exactly what happened during the Spanish Inquisition. Nice try. But not good enough.

I do not hate the Catholic church. I renounce part of its teachings, but I do not hate it.
What I was trying to do with this post was point some people’s attention to the fact that if the attitudes of Luther towards the Jews are to be a hindrance to be a Lutheran, the attitudes and actions of the Catholic church, and those “merely” sancioned by it, thoughout the centuries would alltogether rule out Catholicism.

And THIS is where I pointed to the Spanish Inquisition - where Jews were forced to convert, and later expelled from the Iberian peninsula alltogether.
So a question is in order:

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

• Matt, 7:3

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

LUTHER’S PERSON IS NOT CANONICAL TO LUTHERANS!
Luther said some horrible things, alongside all the good he did for Christendom. I renounce his hateful rhetoric against the Jews as un-scriptural, but acknowledge his Reformation, because those two are not ONE package…

Well said. The Catholic position is not that Luther was wrong when he said that “the Church is need of reform”. The problem was that, when he didn’t get his way, he began trying to break down the Church’s management structures. As you point out, there are some areas, such as attitude to the Jews, where there is now a consensus that Luther was in the wrong.

However if we are going to get reunification we will have to reopen the debate about the 95 theses, no doubt about that.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

LutheranDK:

I do not hate the Catholic church.

If you renounce history and reason and if you denounce the Church for pretexts which are pure self-serving inventions, then that betrays a willingness to blacken Her Name in the eyes of uninformed and violent people thus placing Catholics under threat of injury by same.

LutheranDK:

if the attitudes of Luther towards the Jews are to be a hindrance to be a Lutheran, the attitudes and actions of the Catholic church, and those “merely” sancioned by it, thoughout the centuries would alltogether rule out Catholicism.

Faulty analogy based on a lack of knowledge of history.

LutheranDK:

And THIS is where I pointed to the Spanish Inquisition - where Jews were forced to convert, and later expelled from the Iberian peninsula alltogether.

Your posts betray an ignorance of who the authors of the Spanish Inquisition were. And yet you persist.

LutheranDK:

So a question is in order:

Indeed. And that question is when you are you going to start reading history?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

And his statments that witches are to be burned.

Let us see how well intentioned Luther was. Let’s look at some of his methods.

REFORMATION VISUAL AIDS

IN the tumultuous days of the Protestant schism, Reformers used art as a tool to “re-educate” simple Christians. One powerful and damning visual aid was the *Passional Christi und Antichristi *by Lucas Cranach the Elder, which bore a close connection to the writings of Martin Luther and his disciple, Philip Melanchthon.

Broadsheets showing scenes such as commoners defecating into a papal tiara indicate the anti-papal atmosphere.

Luther may have been the first to identify the pope with the Antichrist of Scripture…

In May of 1521, Cranach and his workshop created twenty-six woodcuts as illustrations to correlate with texts by Philip Melanchthon for a widely published pamphlet, *Passional Christi und Antichristi. *For each pair of woodcuts, Cranach juxtaposed a scene depicting Christ with a scene from the life of the “Antichrist,” pictured as the pope…

From New Advent on the Reformation here is a piece on the methodology for spreading the fracturing of the cross-political beliefs of the Church. Scroll down to III. METHOD OF SPREADING THE REFORMATION:

… pamphlets were circulated everywhere among the people… Painters prepared… degrading caricatures of the pope, the clergy, and the monks… A distinction was no longer drawn between temporary and corrigible abuses and fundamental supernatural Christian truths…

Scroll down also to: VI. RESULTS AND CONSEQUENCES OF THE REFORMATION

Of real freedom of belief among the Reformers of the sixteenth century there was not a trace; on the contrary, the greatest tyranny in matters of conscience was displayed by the representatives of the Reformation. The most baneful Caesaropapism was meanwhile fostered, since the Reformation recognized the secular authorities as supreme also in religious matters…

In this way the Reformation was a chief factor in the evolution of royal absolutism. In every land in which it found ingress, the Reformation was the cause of indescribable suffering among the people; it occasioned civil wars which lasted decades with all their horrors and devastations… Germany in particular, the original home of the Reformation, was reduced to a state of piteous distress by the Thirty Years’ War, and the German Empire was thereby dislodged from the leading position which it had for centuries occupied in Europe.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Nazis Expropriated Luther’s Anti-Semitic Rantings

In 1543, Luther’s animus

probably reached its apotheosis in a vituperative pamphlet, Concerning the Jews and Their Lies, in which he urged the authorities to act against Jews with the utmost severity. A vile and calculating document, it drips with anger and contempt.

“What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we cannot tolerate them…” Not content with merely demonizing Jews, Luther listed seven methods of punishing them.

"First, their synagogues… should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it.

"Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed.

"Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.

"Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under the threat of death to teach any more…

"Fifthly, passports and travelling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to Jews.

"Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping.
“Seventhly, let the young Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the ax, the hoe, the spade, the distaff and spindle, and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses…”

Further on Luther’s book , On the Jews and their Lies (1543):

Four centuries later, the Nazis used quotations from this pamphlet

, which was cited by the publisher of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer during the Nuremberg trials, to justify the Holocaust.

In August 1536, Luther’s prince Elector of Saxony John Frederick issued a mandate that prohibited Jews from inhabiting, engaging in business in, or passing through his realm.

An Alsatian shtadlan, Rabbi Josel of Rosheim, asked a reformer Wolfgang Capito to approach Luther in order to obtain an audience with the prince, but Luther refused every intercession…

Paul Johnson writes that “Luther was not content with verbal abuse. Even before he wrote his anti-Semitic pamphlet, he got Jews expelled from Saxony in 1537, and in the 1540s he drove them from many German towns; he tried unsuccessfully to get the elector to expel them from Brandenburg in 1543.”

He refers to Jews as a brood of vipers and children of the devil…miserable, blind, and senseless, truly stupid fools, thieves and robbers, lazy rogues, daily murderers, and vermin, likens them to gangrene…

Luther advised "… “we must drive them out like mad dogs.”

 

[levi86]

Be sure to bring up Luther’s writings about killing the Jews and the “Romanists.”

sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm

 

[levi86]

What I was trying to do with this post was point some people’s attention to the fact that if the attitudes of Luther towards the Jews are to be a hindrance to be a Lutheran, the attitudes and actions of the Catholic church, and those “merely” sancioned by it, thoughout the centuries would alltogether rule out Catholicism.

The difference being that those things happened after the formation of the Church; any institution can be scandalised over time. Lutheranism however was founded upon the beliefs of a single man; because of this his character is essential. Luther’s approval of actions that were truly evil does have very real implications for Lutheranism.

Matthew 7:15-17
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, in an essay on Lutheran-Jewish relations, observed that “Over the years, Luther’s anti-Jewish writings have continued to be reproduced in pamphlets and other works by neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic groups, such as the Ku Klux Klan.”

The prevailing sentiment among historians is that “On the Jews and Their Lies” and other antisemitic writings by Luther laid the groundwork for the modern “racial” form of antisemitism — that is, the persecution, deportation, or even genocide of Jews…

Writing in Lutheran Quarterly in 1987, Dr. Johannes Wallmann stated:

The assertion that Luther’s expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation

, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented anti-Semitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion.

Franklin Sherman, editor of volume 47 of the American Edition of Luther’s Works in which On the Jews and Their Lies appears… states in response to the claim that “Luther’s antipathy towards the Jews was religious rather than racial in nature” that Luther’s writings against the Jews are not “merely a set of cool, calm and collected theological judgments.”

“His writings are full of rage, and indeed hatred, against an identifiable human group, not just against a religious point of view… [Luther] cannot be distanced completely from modern antisemites.” Regarding Luther’s treatise, On the Jews and Their Lies, the German philosopher Karl Jaspers wrote: “There you already have the whole Nazi program…”

link

Hitler’s Education Minister, Bernhard Rust, was quoted by the Völkischer Beobachter as saying that: “Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance … I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp Schrot und Korn]”.

Hans Hinkel… paid tribute to Luther in his acceptance speech as head of… the film department of Goebbel’s Chamber of Culture and Propaganda Ministry. “… with Luther, the revolution of German blood and feeling against alien elements of the Volk was begun.”

Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman: “On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.”

 

[Ani_Ibi]

sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm

From the link:

100,000] peasants of Germany revolted in 1525 because of their miserable living conditions and were slaughtered at the behest of Martin Luther! … “They should be knocked to pieces, strangled and stabbed, secretly and openly, by everybody who can do it, just as one must kill a mad dog!”

 

[Ani_Ibi]

link

Finally, one of the chief means employed in promoting the spread of the Reformation was the use of violence by the princes and the municipal authorities.

Priests who remained Catholic were expelled and replaced by adherents of the new doctrine, and the people were compelled to attend the new services.

The faithful adherents of the Church were variously persecuted, and the civil authorities saw to it that the faith of the descendants of those who had strongly opposed the Reformation was gradually sapped.

In many places the people were severed from the Church by brutal violence; elsewhere to deceive the people the ruse was employed of retaining the Catholic rite outwardly for a long time, and prescribing for the reformed clergy the ecclesiastical vestments of the Catholic worship.

The history of the Reformation shows incontestably that the civil power was the chief factor in spreading it in all lands, and that in the last analysis it was not religious, but dynastic, political, and social interests which proved decisive.

Add to this that the princes and municipal magistrates who had joined the Reformers tyrannized grossly over the consciences of their subjects and burghers. All must accept the religion prescribed by the civil ruler. The principle “Cuius regio, illius et religio” (Religion goes with the land) is an outgrowth of the Reformation…

 

[nerfherder]

Perhaps we could have a mini thesis on the excesses of Catholics, including those who were responsible for the degradation of the Catholic Church which brought on the Reformation and Counter Reformation.

But I don’t think any of this helps the original poster. Luther played an enormous role in the history of Christianity. I do not concentrate on awful aspects of the Spanish Inquisition, colonisation of underdeveloped regions by the Catholic Church, pogroms against Jews in various countries when I think about my Catholicism. No human, no institution, is perfect.

 

[Angainor]

My best friend is a recent convert to Lutheranism (she previously was not a practicing christian)

So now I’m getting the Lutheran anti-catholic message of course.

I am curious about finding links/articles/books about the whole showdown between Luther and the Church.

Once upon a time, when this whole disagreement had been brewing a while, the Holy Roman Emperor held a meeting where each side could give their positions and hopefully work things out. The most direct way to learn about the showdown would be to start there. Since the whole point of the meeting was to resolve the showdown, so that logically should be the most productive place to start.

The Augsburg Confession was submitted by the evangelicals (later called “Lutherans”) as a statement of what they confessed was their understanding of the true historical catholic faith.

The delegation representing the Pope then responded, point-by-point to the Augsburg Confession in a work called the Confutation.

The evangelicals then counter-responded, point-by-point, to the Confutation in a document known as the Apology to the Augsburg Confession.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

The Augsburg Confession was submitted by the evangelicals (later called “Lutherans”) as a statement of what they confessed was their understanding of the true historical catholic faith.

It starts

Most Invincible Emperor, Caesar Augustus, Most Clement Lord: Inasmuch as Your Imperial Majesty has summoned a Diet of the Empire here at Augsburg to deliberate concerning measures against the Turk, that most atrocious, hereditary, and ancient enemy of the Christian name and religion, in what way, namely, effectually to withstand his furor and assaults by strong and lasting military provision;

Swapping George Bush for Caesar Augustus (aka Charles V), would you write that sentence today?

 

[Angainor]

It starts

Most Invincible Emperor, Caesar Augustus, Most Clement Lord: Inasmuch as Your Imperial Majesty has summoned a Diet of the Empire here at Augsburg to deliberate concerning measures against the Turk, that most atrocious, hereditary, and ancient enemy of the Christian name and religion, in what way, namely, effectually to withstand his furor and assaults by strong and lasting military provision;

Swapping George Bush for Caesar Augustus (aka Charles V), would you write that sentence today?

That is the high tongue of the diplomat, of which, alas, I humbly confess to less than practiced skill. However, in light of the stated fact that the most atrocious enemy of the Western name is not the Turk proper, but rather “terror”. Therefore, I must answer your inquiry in the negative.

 

[LutheranDK]

The difference being that those things happened after the formation of the Church; any institution can be scandalised over time. Lutheranism however was founded upon the beliefs of a single man; because of this his character is essential. Luther’s approval of actions that were truly evil does have very real implications for Lutheranism.

Matthew 7:15-17
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

If what you say, that the Lutheran church is based on Luther’s person, was true, you would be correct.
But it is not!
The basis of the Lutheran church is Scripture and the Lutheran confessions which are derived from Scripture. Luther’s political viewpoints are of no consequence, since it is not Martin Luther who Lutherans follow and worship, but Jesus Christ.
To speak plainly: The Lutheran church is build on the rediscovery of the old truths of salvation through (true) faith alone, only by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Christ, and documented in the Scriptures:
*Sola fide
*Sola gratia
*Solus Christus
*Sola Scriptura

The Lutheran church is not build upon a man (like the Catholic church is build around the pope), but on the contents of Peter’s confession in Matt 16:16:
“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

I’m willing to bet that your priest has some politican viewpoints which you do not share? Politics is not what binds Christians together. What binds us together is the Lord we serve.

And I think it is rather funny, I must say, that you insist on making some of the sick viewpoints of one man in the early renaissance the problem of the Lutheran church, but not to make the selling and bartering of bishoprics, freedom from this so-called “purgatory”, and even salvation itself, etc etc the problem of the Catholic church?
Is it that you DO see the beam in your own eye, but think it irrelevant?

 

[LutheranDK]

If you renounce history and reason and if you denounce the Church for pretexts which are pure self-serving inventions, then that betrays a willingness to blacken Her Name in the eyes of uninformed and violent people thus placing Catholics under threat of injury by same.

Faulty analogy based on a lack of knowledge of history.

Your posts betray an ignorance of who the authors of the Spanish Inquisition were. And yet you persist.

Indeed. And that question is when you are you going to start reading history?

1: I do not renounce history and reason. I rather make use of these two. And to say that I have placed Catholics in danger is just, pardon my French, plain and simply stupid.

2: How? Is it not true that the Catholic church has done some horrible things, and condoned/looked the other way at hundreds more, to the Jewish people throughout the centuries?
If you deny THIS, then it is you, good sir, who needs to brush up on history.

3: I know that the Spanish Inquisition was instigated by the Spanish royalty, but with the power the Catholic church had, it could have stopped it in its infancy. A simple bull would have been enough.
Ferdinand of Aragon set up the Inquisition after having “pressured” Sixtus IV to condone it.
So the main burden of its initiation was not on the CC, although cowardice and spinelessness seems to have been the motto of the then “vicar of Christ” (who was also later “pressured” into withdrawing a bull agsinst it…Vicar of Christ my foot…), but at any point from then on and until the Inquisistion’s disbandment in the early 1800’s, a single command from Rome could have stopped this monstrosity.
Yet it never came…

4: As you can see, I have read history… It was one of my best subjects in High School…

 

[AlmostCatholic]

I think one thing should be noted in this discussion.

Whatever the differences and squabbles are, it should be joyous that this person came from unbelief into knowing Jesus Christ. The issue isn’t about following Martin Luther or the Pope. It is about following Christ. If catholics want to bring us protestants into the church, it will not be by hitting us over the head with Luther’s antisemitism; it’ll be by giving us more Christ. The doctrines that perturb us will make sense when they are more about Christ. The doctrine of Mary’s position is due to here relation to Christ for example. This is the cornerstone on which all rests. Show your friend more of Christ and she will go to the church. But if you attack Luther, you will push her into a church where she will be fed.

As Peter Kreeft says, God would rather His children leave home and be fed than stay home and starve. (check out www. Peterkreeft.com and his mp3 download on ecumenism.)

Peace in Christ,
-Justin

 

[mikeledes]

It is interesting how the most violent episodes in Catholic history happened over a millenia after it was founded (Crusades, Inquisition, etc.). The founders of Protestantism, however, did not hesitate in engaging in violence (Peasant’s revolt, Calvins burning of Michael Servetus, the persecution of Anabaptists, etc.)
Pope Alexander VI, Torquemada, Isabella and Ferdinand, etc. did not establish the Catholic Church. But Luther - a man who encouraged violence against Jews and the peasants in the Peasant’s revolt - is the founder of the Lutheran Church, a church that even bears his name.

God Bless,
Michael