Martin Luther?

[CthlcTeen]

What did Martin Luther do exactly? I heard he started the protestant church, and that when he was dying he regretted it. Also, are alot of other religions considered Protestant?

 

[jmcrae]

What did Martin Luther do exactly? I heard he started the protestant church, and that when he was dying he regretted it. Also, are alot of other religions considered Protestant?

Martin Luther promulgated the heresy of “faith alone” which is the idea that we don’t have to be obedient to the Commandments or follow the precepts of the Church: all we have to do is make an intellectual decision that Jesus is God, and there is nothing further required of us.

Of course, we know that the Devil knows in his mind who Jesus is, but the Devil isn’t going to go to Heaven.

Martin Luther was excommunicated for this heresy from the only church in existence at that time, which was the one that had originally been founded by Jesus Christ, which today we know as the Catholic Church - but instead of either going into exile or else going to Confession to become reconciled to the Church, he decided to start up his own self-made church to replace the Catholic Church, so that he could continue to call himself a Christian. Martin Luther’s church was called “Protestantism” because of his protests against Christ’s Church.

Other people living at around the same time as Luther decided to imitate him and also started up their own churches, too, instead of submitting themselves to the authority of Christ’s Church to do and believe what Christ wants us to do and to believe - it seemed like a good idea to them because when Germany became Protestant, the Pope no longer had authority to tell the princes not to marry their sisters; King Henry VIII in particular noticed this, and realized that if he started up his own Church, the Pope would no longer be able to tell him that he could not get divorced and remarried, so he started up the Anglican Church.

Thus the “Protestant Reformation” was born, and northern Europe descended into chaos. The ruins of burned Catholic churches and monasteries still litter the landscape there even today - it will be centuries more before the repairs will ever be completed.

 

[Alexius]

jmcrae: Martin Luther was excommunicated for this heresy from the only church in existence at that time, which was the one that had originally been founded by Jesus Christ, which today we know as the Catholic Church - but instead of either going into exile or else going to Confession to become reconciled to the Church, he decided to start up his own self-made church to replace the Catholic Church, so that he could continue to call himself a Christian. Martin Luther’s church was called “Protestantism” because of his protests against Christ’s Church.

What about the Orthodox Church?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

jmcrae>>Martin Luther promulgated the heresy of “faith alone” which is the idea that we don’t have to be obedient to the Commandments or follow the precepts of the Church: all we have to do is make an intellectual decision that Jesus is God, and there is nothing further required of us.

**I have to call you out on this.

Faith alone is not a heresy. There is plenty on another thread which explained what Protestants mean by faith alone. Just as we Protestants have to find out what you guys actually mean about something, so should you find out what we actually mean. It’s not a heresy and if it’s going to be a problem for me to say something in the Catholic teaching is a heresy, well then, it’s going to be a problem with me if you claim that Faith Alone is a heresy. It is frustrating to see you claim that when it seems like all day long yesterday we hammered it out that it is not the case. Please know what you’re talking about just as I have to. You don’t get a free ride being a Catholic.

There is nothing about just making an intellectual decision that Jesus is God and that nothing further is required of us. Please tell me, when do you know if you’ve done enough that is required of you? **

 

[hoosierdaddy]

That said, Martin Luther was one of the key influential people in the Reformation. He was not alone but he had a great impact. I suggest you go to sites or books about/by Martin Luther and you will find out. Good luck.

 

[1ke]

What did Martin Luther do exactly? I heard he started the protestant church, and that when he was dying he regretted it. Also, are alot of other religions considered Protestant?

Hillaire Belloc has two excellent books on the Reformation. I suggest you purchase them or check them out at the library. They are:

How The Reformation Happened
Characters of the Reformation

All of the religions that broke away from the Catholic Church during this time, or the ones that subsequently broke away from those churches, are all considered Protestant. For example, the Church of England (Anglican, Episcopal) broke away from the Catholic Church during this period. The Methodists, in turn, splintered off of the Anglican Church. So, they are a descendant church of the original split at the Reformation.

There are a couple of good articles you can read online from the old Catholic encyclopedia, from the early 1900s:

newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/12700b.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

 

[jmcrae]

What about the Orthodox Church?

They were and still are Catholics in schism; not heretics.

In any case, they would not have been accessible to Martin Luther - there were no European Orthodox Churches at that time in history. His only two options were to submit to the Catholic Church (Christ’s original) or start up his own man-made organization.

He chose to start up his own man-made organization.

 

[rpp]

jmcrae>>Martin Luther promulgated the heresy of “faith alone” which is the idea that we don’t have to be obedient to the Commandments or follow the precepts of the Church: all we have to do is make an intellectual decision that Jesus is God, and there is nothing further required of us.

Here is the Catholic definition of heresy from the Catechism.

                                                                                       2089 *Incredulity* is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.  *"Heresy* is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy* is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism* is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

More than faith is required. External works are as well, often called corporal works of mercy. Not to mention submission to Earthly spiritual superiors (e.g. Bishops). In short you must believe all that the Catholic Church teaches.

This is one of the many reasons why Martin Luther was excommunicated for heresy. Sola Fidae by it’s very nature denies the Church. Thus it is a heresy from a Catholic perspective. In this context “heresy” is not an insult, but a statement of fact. Yes the word can add fire, but I do not think that JMcrae intended any insult.

From the perspective of a Protestant, Catholics are heretics as well. It all depends on the chair you hve chosen.

By the way, can you give me a link to the thread you were referring to?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

They were and still are Catholics in schism; not heretics.

In any case, they would not have been accessible to Martin Luther - there were no European Orthodox Churches at that time in history. His only two options were to submit to the Catholic Church (Christ’s original) or start up his own man-made organization.

He chose to start up his own man-made organization.

He didn’t have much choice when the Church chased him out and wanted his head now did he? All for preaching the Gospel. God bless Martin Luther.

P.S. He didn’t start his own man-made religion. He made Christianity truly accessible to the people and he preached the Gospel. Again, God bless Martin Luther.

 

[rpp]

He didn’t have much choice when the Church chased him out and wanted his head now did he? All for preaching the Gospel. God bless Martin Luther.

P.S. He didn’t start his own man-made religion. He made Christianity truly accessible to the people and he preached the Gospel. Again, God bless Martin Luther.

Marin Luther’s life or safety was never threatened or endangered by the Church. That is a myth based on lies created in the late 17th century. The Church did not chase him out. He repeatedly refused to appear at numerous hearings to air his complaints to people who could actually do something about. He had earned a reputation as rude bully and oaf. An no, there was no inquisition looking at this. (The church was still recovering from the Great Schism.)

Instead, he sought political support and advantage and got it from various local kings and lords who looked ot eliminate Church oversight in their questionable treatment of peasents as well as those who very quickly sought to confiscate Church property for private gain.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

rpp>>More than faith is required. External works are as well, often called corporal works of mercy. Not to mention submission to Earthly spiritual superiors (e.g. Bishops). In short you must believe all that the Catholic Church teaches.

**False. Those works are a result of faith. If you think you can do good works to merit your salvation, I want to kindly say that is not true my friend. Filthy rags, is what the Lord thinks of our “good works” in an attempt to merit salvation. Actually, I must believe all that the Bible teaches. The Church can go astray and the Bible predicts it; the Word of the Lord abides forever and never changes. **

This is one of the many reasons why Martin Luther was excommunicated for heresy. Sola Fidae by it’s very nature denies the Church. Thus it is a heresy from a Catholic perspective. In this context “heresy” is not an insult, but a statement of fact. Yes the word can add fire, but I do not think that JMcrae intended any insult.

What do you mean Sola Fide denies the Church? Are you trying to say that the Church saves you? I don’t think JMcrae meant any insult either. I just wanted to speak out and uphold the same standards that are applied to us Protestants here. Martin Luther was excommunicated because some extremely proud men who thought they were above God refused to listen to the truth. God bless Martin Luther.

From the perspective of a Protestant, Catholics are heretics as well. It all depends on the chair you hve chosen.

If you think the Church or your works saves you, then yes. But I took the time to listen to what you guys were saying yesterday and have come to the conclusion that it is still faith that saves and this faith produces works through love. This is hardly saying you are saved by works though. You are saved by faith. I don’t believe I’ve chosen a chair though. God is Sovereign and He leads me where He will have me go.

By the way, can you give me a link to the thread you were referring to?

**I think it was the one that was locked…not by scripture alone? I’m not sure. **

---

 

[jmcrae]

He didn’t have much choice when the Church chased him out and wanted his head now did he?

Martin Luther died of old age. He was brought to trial for heresy on several different occasions, but he never received the death penalty.

A good history of the life and times of Martin Luther can be found HERE - it’s written by a Lutheran historian.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

rpp>>Marin Luther’s life or safety was never threatened or endangered by the Church. That is a myth based on lies created in the late 17th century. The Church did not chase him out. He repeatedly refused to appear at numerous hearings to air his complaints to people who could actually do something about. He had earned a reputation as rude bully and oaf. An no, there was no inquisition looking at this. (The church was still recovering from the Great Schism.)

**I’m not doubting your integrity here but I think you could be wrong. It’s easy to say that it was all a myth based on lies but can you prove it? I admit he was a rude bully but I believe it was only after some time. Heck, his friend pretty much pronounced him a heretic. How would you respond? However, he appeared at many hearings but the leaders would not listen. **

Instead, he sought political support and advantage and got it from various local kings and lords who looked ot eliminate Church oversight in their questionable treatment of peasents as well as those who very quickly sought to confiscate Church property for private gain.

He probably needed political support since the Church had her hands in the political world too didn’t they? Maybe the Church should have treated peasants better (Scripture deals with this) and maybe they should have listened to what Luther was saying. I have a strong feeling they didn’t listen; that they didn’t ask him what he meant by faith alone. They just assumed. And you haven’t brought it up yet, but Luther was not in support of the eventual violence that happened during the Reformation.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Martin Luther died of old age. He was brought to trial for heresy on several different occasions, but he never received the death penalty.

A good history of the life and times of Martin Luther can be found HERE - it’s written by a Lutheran historian.

This is probably because he went in hiding.

Thanks for the link. Another good source is Luther’s biography. And maybe some of his books to read what he actually believed. I’ve got Bondage of the Will but am not finnished it yet.

 

[scylla]

Hey hoosier, please be careful there.

Catholics don’t believe in their good works to get to Heaven that is a common slander and I am pretty sure we talked about this before. We just adamantly deny that works are not necessary for a real faith.

We should start a thread on free will as it seems you are denying free will, but maybe I have misunderstood you.

Martin Luther might have had some good intentions and certainly did do some good things but I invite you to read his writings. He is extremely vulgar, espouses some horribly sinful behavior and boasts about himself. I would certainly hope God blessed him to repent before he died as he certainly behaved in a scandalous way that in no way would be an example for a Christian to live.

We should choose Jesus first and then do everything we can to faithfully follow Him.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[jmcrae]

**False. Those works are a result of faith. If you think you can do good works to merit your salvation, I want to kindly say that is not true my friend. Filthy rags, is what the Lord thinks of our “good works” in an attempt to merit salvation. Actually, I must believe all that the Bible teaches. The Church can go astray and the Bible predicts it; the Word of the Lord abides forever and never changes. **

If you believe all that the Bible teaches, then please read Matthew 25:31-46, and Matthew chapters 5-7 and believe that Christ meant what He said - that those who do not do His commandments cannot be saved - that those who say Lord, Lord without obeying the commandments that He gave to His Church must be consigned to the fires of Hell at the day of judgement.

**What do you mean Sola Fide denies the Church? Are you trying to say that the Church saves you? **

The Church is Christ’s body on earth, and speaks to us with His authority, which was given to the Apostles and passed down to their successors, who are the Pope and the Bishops who are in communion with him. “Faith alone” denies that the successors of the Apostles have this authority. (In addition to denying at least half the New Testament, which calls us to obedience and to works of mercy in addition to our faith.)

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Here’s a few things from that link:

October 20 Luther flees from Augsburg in fear of his life.

I add>>judging by the way they put other such supposed “dissidents” to death, he made the right decision

March 3 Luther writes a letter to Pope Leo X. In the letter he states that it was not his intention to undermine the authority of the pope or the church.

January 9 Rome restarts the inquisition against Luther and his ideas

November 12 Luther’s books are burned in Cologne. Burning of his book in other cities follows shortly thereafter…

November 20 Luther writes Freedom of the Christian Man and publishes it along with an open letter to Pope Leo X. In the letter Luther apologizes to the pope personally, but continues to denounce what he sees as false doctrine and corruption. In the treatise he speak of the freedom a Christian gains with justification.

May 15 At the Battle of Frankenhausen, 50,000 peasants are cut down. Before the uprising is quelled, most of the year’s crops, hundreds of villages, 1000 castles and monasteries are destroyed. Nearly 100,000 die. Protestant ministers are hanged by Catholic princes. The peasants believe that they were betrayed by Luther.

Beautiful stuff. not.

 

[FCEGM]

I think Jacques Maritain in his Three Reformers: Luther-Descartes-Rousseau, Charles Scribner & Sons, best encapsulates Luther’s self-centeredness that has played itself out in the centuries since. (Appropriately, Maritain refers to the section on Luther as "The Advent of the Self):

What first impresses us in Luther’s character is egocentrism: something much subtler, much deeper, and much more serious, than egoism; a metaphysical egoism. Luther’s self becomes practically the center of gravity of everything, especially in the spiritual order. And Luther’s self is not only his passing quarrels and passions, it has a representative value; it is the self of the created being, the incommunicable stuff of the human individual. The Reformation unbridled the human self in the spiritual and religious order, as the Renaissance (I mean the hidden spirit of the Renaissance) unbridled the human self in the order of natural and sensible activities.

After Luther decided to refuse obedience to the Pope and break with the communion of the Church, his self is henceforth supreme, despite his interior agonies which increased until the end. Every “external” rule, . . .becomes then an intolerable insult to his “Christian liberty”.

“I do not admit,” he writes in June 1522, “that my doctrine can be judged by anyone, even by the angels. He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved.” [Erl., 28, 144]. “Luther’s self,” wrote Moehler, “was in his opinion the centre round which all humanity should gravitate; he made himself the universal man in whom all should find their model. Let us make no bones about it, he put himself in the place of Jesus Christ.”

As we have already noticed, Luther’s doctrine is itself only a universalization of his self, a projection of his self into the world of eternal truths. From this point of view, what distinguishes the father of Protestantism from the other great heresiarchs is that they started first from a dogmatic error, from a false doctrinal view; whatever their psychological origins may have been, the cause of their heresies is a deviation of the intelligence, and their own fortunes only count insofar as they conditioned that deviation. It is quite different with Luther. What counts is his life, his history. Doctrine comes as an extra. Lutheranism is not a system worked out by Luther; it is the over-flow of Luther’s individuality.

 

[scylla]

Beautiful stuff. not.

No Catholic is saying that those weren’t horrible and violent times.

Of course Catholics killed non-catholics and non-catholics killed Catholics. It is a shame that people do horrible things, but that proves nothing about Luthers faithfulness to God.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[jmcrae]

May 15 At the Battle of Frankenhausen, 50,000 peasants are cut down.

By the Protestants.

Before the uprising is quelled, most of the year’s crops, hundreds of villages, 1000 castles and monasteries are destroyed.

By the Protestants.

Nearly 100,000 die.

Protestant ministers are hanged by Catholic princes.

For the crimes of burning down monasteries,villages, crops, and castles, for the loss of 100,000 lives, and for the direct murders of 50,000 peasants.

The peasants believe that they were betrayed by Luther.

Ya think?

(For the sarcasm-impaired: Yes, they had been betrayed by Luther. Big time.)