Martin Luther?

[hoosierdaddy]

Sorry but this parts confusing. Did he start his own church or not? Didnt he change alot of the teachings in Catholicism? If he did, isnt that like starting your own church because youre taking out what you dont want to believe?

**No, he didn’t start his own church. He tried to reform the Catholic Church (which was corrupt) but they wanted none of it. They chased him out. So he had no choice but to practice Christianity which he believed derived from the Bible. That isn’t starting one’s own church (although church planting is commanded). I believe they followed the command in Revelation 18:4,5 to “come out of her…”.

Also, he didn’t take out what he didn’t want to believe. He took out what he couldn’t believe because it was false doctrine.**

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**The peasants believe that they were betrayed by Luther.

Ya think?

(For the sarcasm-impaired: Yes, they had been betrayed by Luther. Big time.)**

I hope you’re not calling me “sarcasm impaired” because I can be the Pope of sarcasm.

Also, those were Protestants who didn’t understand Luther’s teachings. He was not in support of all that violence. However, since the Catholic Church was killing Protestants, I may have done all that myself.

Also, just because they “felt” betrayed by Luther does not mean Luther betrayed them. Unless you’re willing to admit that the Catholic Church betrayed Christ AND Luther? Somehow I doubt it though.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Not only did he change doctrine, he changed the Bible.

Prove it! And uh…if he changed the Bible he can just say he heard from God and it was “Tradition”. But then he’d be a good Catholic wouldn’t he?

 

[thistle]

Prove it! And uh…if he changed the Bible he can just say he heard from God and it was “Tradition”. But then he’d be Catholic wouldn’t he?

Read the book Luther wrote that TheGarg gave the link for in post #34 and you will see what a detestable person Martin Luther was and its his own words that condemn him.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**David>>Just curious…if faith alone is all we need, based on what is written in the bible how do you explain:
KJV
James 2:
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It appears that faith alone isn’t enough. Clearly we need works, too.**

I’ve already explained this. No offence to you but I’m not going to again.

Acts 16:30,31 says
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

John 3:16 says
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans says much about faith but how about this from Romans 5:1,2
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:1-10 (itself teaches that we are not saved by works; works come after salvation)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

So…in the Scripture verse game it’s 4 to 1 in my favour. Ball’s in your court.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Read the book Luther wrote that TheGarg gave the link for in post #34 and you will see what a detestable person Martin Luther was and its his own words that condemn him.

I have already read some of it, though not all of it. I was going to comment on it later but I’ll say something now.

You say his own words condemn him? Well, what about his good words, shouldn’t they save him?

As for what he said about Jewish people, yes, it was wrong. But what was the culture like at that time? Was he raised in a culture that thought that way? Can you take one minute to remember that he was a sinful person just as you and I are? I’m sorry, but someone’s saying nasty things about people does not disprove their doctrine. If that’s the case, what’s your excuse for your CHURCH let alone some of your Popes? Look at the things your Church has said about Protestants! Look at the things your Church has DONE to Protestants! Your Church has its own skeletons in the closet and some detestable things that it has said and done. The sooner you realize that the better off you will be. So…what was your point?

If you want to talk Nazi Germany, what was the Catholic Church’s stance on that? Never mind, I’ll go check it out for myself. I heard it was nothing more than toleration. And did you know that Hitler was a Roman Catholic? So was Luther…til he woke up.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

They certainly did not chase him out, It was his heresy that got him in trouble. I think you need to read some of the horrible books that martin Luther wrote, before you go praising him. In my eyes he is a dispicable man, a hater and troublemaker.

Here is one of his books you can google : The Jews and thier Lies

Go ahead, read it…but be warned, If you love this lunatic, becuase you are in for some some disappointment. Doesn’t sound like someone i would even want to associate with, but Hitler found his Ideas attractive.

Peace of the Lord be with you all

First of all, YOU’RE required to love all men. I’m not disappointed at all. I believe he was wrong; however, that does not disprove his doctrine. So…are you any better than Luther was? I doubt it. You’re as much a sinner as anyone else, even Hitler. Just because you haven’t killed anyone or said nasty things about the Jewish people does not give you a right to condemn someone. There’s plenty in the Bible to correct you on that.

Luther was wrong, but was that the culture at the time? Sure Hitler would find his ideas attractive, because Hitler was a Roman Catholic as well. And the RCC’s “toleration” of Hitler’s actions do not speak well for the RCC. They were afraid to stand up and say Hitler was wrong. Cowards.

I’d rather associate with Hitler than someone who says I’m a heretic or that I “don’t have the fullness of truth”. That’s bunk. I have Jesus Christ as much as you do.

 

[Church_Militant]

Luther was wrong, but was that the culture at the time? Sure Hitler would find his ideas attractive, because Hitler was a Roman Catholic as well. And the RCC’s “toleration” of Hitler’s actions do not speak well for the RCC. They were afraid to stand up and say Hitler was wrong. Cowards.

You have just been reported for disrespecting the Catholics on the forum. You should know better than that by now.

That is rhetorical bunk and GROSSLY inaccurate. See these links and then try again.

I’d rather associate with Hitler than someone who says I’m a heretic or that I “don’t have the fullness of truth”. That’s bunk. I have Jesus Christ as much as you do.

Quit :crying: Brian. You get offended too easily to be much of a witness for Christ, especially to us Catholics.

It’s a material fact tho…you do not have the fullness of truth and you cannot refute it. You can argue against it from your emotionalism, but the fact is that you cannot prove that wrong.

You cling to that which is comfortable for you and reject out of hand the idea that you might just have been misled or decieved.

If you are gioing to discuss religion with other human beings you have to be more open minded and stop taking every statement personally. It sounds to me like you have some doubts about what you believe and that’s what is really rattling your cage.
No offense buddy but think it over, okay?
The peace of Christ be with you always.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You have just been reported for disrespecting the Catholics on the forum. You should know better than that by now.

That’s it! I am sick and tired of being bullied. You call me saying what I heard to be historical fact, “disrespecting” Catholics? What about all the trash you spout off about myself and Protestants?

That is rhetorical bunk and GROSSLY inaccurate. See these links and then try again.Quit :crying: Brian. You get offended too easily to be much of a witness for Christ, especially to us Catholics.

I get offended to easily? Who’s the one reporting whom? Thank you though for insulting me and my witness for Christ.

It’s a material fact tho…you do not have the fullness of truth and you cannot refute it. You can argue against it from your emotionalism, but the fact is that you cannot prove that wrong.

But I thought only Jesus was the truth? Are you saying I don’t have Jesus? I don’t even have to attempt to argue against it. That’s just a plain idiotic statement and uh…Scripture disagrees with you.

You cling to that which is comfortable for you and reject out of hand the idea that you might just have been misled or decieved.

Ditto. Pot…meet kettle.

If you are gioing to discuss religion with other human beings you have to be more open minded and stop taking every statement personally. It sounds to me like you have some doubts about what you believe and that’s what is really rattling your cage.

Ditto. Pot…meet kettle. Who reported whom? Think about that. And while you’re at it, you may want to quit your slander and disrespect against me. Oh wait. That’s ok…when it’s against me.

No offense buddy but think it over, okay?

Oh…plenty of offence taken. I’m not your buddy.

The peace of Christ be with you always.

How can the peace of Christ be with me when I don’t have Him (according to you)?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You have just been reported for disrespecting the Catholics on the forum. You should know better than that by now.

]
Sounds like you are the one whom gets easily offended, I don’t get what he said that was offensive?

 

[thistle]

Sounds like you are the one whom gets easily offended, I don’t get what he said that was offensive?

Below is what he said that was offensive. What he said is a total pack of lies!

QUOTE

And the RCC’s “toleration” of Hitler’s actions do not speak well for the RCC. They were afraid to stand up and say Hitler was wrong. Cowards. UNQUOTE

 

[Church_Militant]

Sure Hitler would find his ideas attractive, because Hitler was a Roman Catholic as well. And the RCC’s “toleration” of Hitler’s actions do not speak well for the RCC. They were afraid to stand up and say Hitler was wrong. Cowards.

The fact is that Hitler was baptized but was not an active Catholic at all.

He actually created his own pagan based Nazi religion that is spooky to read about, but HD’s allegation that we are “cowards” and did nothing to oppose Hitler is historical bunkum and he’s been the victim of anti-Catholic propaganda, as the links I posted up the will show.

Many people have heard this and most have been able to ask about it with some common courtesy, but calling us cowards goes far beyond what should be said.

Moerover, I have never told him that he is not a believer. I have never told him that he is a heretic and I HAVE had that said to me right here on these forums and on other n-C ones as well. I don’t take offense at such allegations, I refute them with facts. Why would I get upset and offended if I know the allegation is untrue and I have no doubt that God does as well?

I’m secure in my faith and my salvation. N-C opinions will not chnage that either in my eyes or the eyes of God.

I have sought to be a charitable opponent to HD and you too Simon. I don’t see any reason for the heated offense. I reported the post because it violates forum rules.
Pax tecum,

 

[MrS]

I have sought to be a charitable opponent to HD and you too Simon. I don’t see any reason for the heated offense. I reported the post because it violates forum rules.
Pax tecum,

I too was wondering if hoosier would even stick around. I think he may have put me on his ignore list…even though the questions I asked were rather straight forward, and certainly easy for discussion here,

hoosier, I even defended you against the suggestion that you were simply here to start agruments and cause disruption, I still don’t think that is why you came here. Your reason was to look closer at Catholicism… and it seems that your close look has raised serious doubts about what you may have been taught or may hae learned on your own.

If you remember, I said that your pastor, regardless of how nice a man he may be, has no legitimate authroity to teach and declare Truth … especially from our Catholic Book, the Bible.

hoosier, what you have seen here is a group of Catholics professing the teachings of the Church… not private opinion or personal versions of revelation.

to the mods… perhaps this is a situation where hoosier should have his account under review, not suspended.

.

 

[Church_Militant]

That’s it! I am sick and tired of being bullied. You call me saying what I heard to be historical fact, “disrespecting” Catholics? What about all the trash you spout off about myself and Protestants?

I haven’t bullied you Brian. Not in the least and I don’t know what you are talking about.

You didn’t bother to ask if we’d heard it before (many times in fact, as my link will show), and I didn’t take offense…I simply reported you for disrespect, as per the forum rules. Had you not used the ad hominem “cowards”, I would have offered the same refutations and yet not reported you.

If you disagree with anything that I or any other Catholic posts, you are perfectly free to refute it, but please be sure of your facts because otherwise you’ll get refuted and that may frustrate you. It would me…

I get offended to easily? Who’s the one reporting whom? Thank you though for insulting me and my witness for Christ. Already answered. Hey, my critique of your ability to share your faith is my informed opinion as having been an active member of both Southern Baptist churches as well as a deacon in an Assembly of God church and a very active witness. I don’t know if this is how you were trained to share your faith, but it doesn’t work for me. (Which is my own informed opinion for what it’s worth. :twocents

But I thought only Jesus was the truth? Are you saying I don’t have Jesus? I don’t even have to attempt to argue against it. That’s just a plain idiotic statement and uh…Scripture disagrees with you.

This is a rant…I am saying nothing of the kind. I say precisely what I mean Brian. That is for you and the Holy Spirit to work out. Not me. Scripture says many things Brian. Not the least of which is 1st Corinthians 13 and 1st Peter 3:15.

** Who reported whom? Think about that. And while you’re at it, you may want to quit your slander and disrespect against me. Oh wait. That’s ok…when it’s against me.**

If anyone can show me where I have slandered or disrespected you here, I will readily and humbly apologize, but I don’t believe that I have. I refuted your statements and arguments, but I did not attack you personally in any way. I don’t do that because it’s completely unChrist-like and counterproductive to any attempt at sharing my faith. I am logical and methodical and factual. I strive not to be offensive.

Oh…plenty of offence taken. I’m not your buddy.

As you wish Brian, but I think you are over-reacting. That was not my intent at all.

How can the peace of Christ be with me when I don’t have Him (according to you)?

I never said that, and that blessing is scriptural.
Pax tecum,

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having drifted off topic this thread is now closed.