Martin Luther's 82nd thesis

[josie_L]

Do the following verses from Isaiah 22 also apply to the papacy?

I think it was Jesus who said “the gates of Hell shall not prevail” (in that very same verse that he hands St. Peter the keys).

 

[josie_L]

Here have some too while your at it.

 

[SyCarl]

I think it was Jesus who said “the gates of Hell shall not prevail” (in that very same verse that he hands St. Peter the keys).

Does that mean that they shall not prevail against Peter and his successors or against the Church. They are not the same thing. Then there is the whole can of worms of defining the Church. As long as there is one true believer Hades has not prevailed against the Church.

 

[EphelDuath]

Does that mean that they shall not prevail against Peter and his successors or against the Church. They are not the same thing. Then there is the whole can of worms of defining the Church. As long as there is one true believer Hades has not prevailed against the Church.

There have been Popes who were unfaithful, so this would mean the Church; for even if the Pope himself is not a good Christian, the Holy Spirit still ensures that the Church will survive.

If you’ll note in Isaiah 22, by the way, “keys” represent authority in Israel; Jesus giving St. Peter the keys means that he is the head of the Church. Also note the use of the term “like a father to Judah,” and the word “Pope” is derived from the Latin word for father.

 

[josie_L]

Does that mean that they shall not prevail against Peter and his successors or against the Church. They are not the same thing. Then there is the whole can of worms of defining the Church. As long as there is one true believer Hades has not prevailed against the Church.

The gates of Hell shall not prevail against that (Christ’s) Church which has at it’s (earthly) head, St Peter (and his successors).

 

[ccolley2]

If you do not debate nor discuss nor compare the common practice and tradition to Scripture in these debates or discussions, how can you be sure that the leaders are not leading the flock astray, hypothetically speaking…

The church had Sacred Tradition long before it had “the bible”. We have Jesus’ promise that the Holy Spirit will come and lead them into all truth…Uhhhhh, Jesus’ word is good enough for me.
CC

 

[Hisalone]

I think it was Jesus who said “the gates of Hell shall not prevail” (in that very same verse that he hands St. Peter the keys).

Obviouly if v22 of Is 22 applies to the papacy so does vv24 and 25.
What exactly are the gates of hell?

 

[guanophore]

Do the following verses from Isaiah 22 also apply to the papacy?

I am sure it seems to you that they do! However, let us save that topic for another thread, shall we? I say that in all charity.

 

[guanophore]

Does that mean that they shall not prevail against Peter and his successors or against the Church. They are not the same thing. Then there is the whole can of worms of defining the Church. As long as there is one true believer Hades has not prevailed against the Church.

Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of “church”. Jesus did not found “one true believer”, but a Body was prepared for Him. Of that Body He appointed shepherds, and commissioned them to feed and watch the sheep.

But what does any of that have to do with Luther’s 82nd thesis? I have never seen a thread with such a hard time staying on topic.

 

[guanophore]

Obviouly if v22 of Is 22 applies to the papacy so does vv24 and 25.
What exactly are the gates of hell?

The path into death and destruction. That would be teaching error. Once error is taught, we are on the road to hell.

 

[Hesychios]

I realize that this is not on topic but posts have to be responded to where they show up.

Just for clarification…

He does work in concert with the other bishops

Whom he appoints and supervises (and can remove).

… the Pope does not have the consolidated power some presume he has …

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him or her] be anathema.
Decrees of Vatican Council 1870AD, Cp 3

Ordination of Bishops and Eparchs

Main article: Appointment of Roman Catholic bishops

The appointment of bishops in the Catholic Church is a complicated process with several officials being invoved. In the Latin Church,

• the local synod, as a body itself entirely appointed by the Pope, acting in a purely consultative role, suggesting candidates but not selecting future bishops
• the papal nuncio (or apostolic delegate), **appointed by the Pope, serving him directly, authority entirely Papal delegated by the sitting Pope **
• various dicasteries of the Roman Curia, secretarial staff of the Pope, authority entirely Papal delegated by the sitting Pope
• and the Pope duh all take a part; since the 1970s it has become common practice for the nuncio to solicit (name removed by moderator)ut from clergy and laity within the vacant diocese.

This is actually a more centralized administration of the church than was to be had in 1516AD. It was not until concordats were concluded with various civil governments that the Papacy was able to secure the right to appoint bishops in many European countries. This became most strongly apparent in the years immediately following the Napoleonic era. In the subsequent half century a sitting Pope was able to call a Council of bishops and abbots to formalize this authority, most of the bishops attending having been chosen by the then reigning Pope.

In patriarchal and major archiepiscopal Eastern Churches, the permanent synod, the holy synod, and the patriarch or major archbishop also play a role in the selection of bishops.

Interesting also to note that outside of the home territories the Popes have reserved the right to appoint bishops for these churches, and some do not technically have a patriarch or home territory as such, and must rely on the Pope for appointments exclusively.

In those cases where the Pope has not seen fit to name bishops to replace the faithfully departed ones, the church actually exists with no hierarchy. Thus no local synod may chose a bishop and ask for his ordination on it’s own authority. No other Catholic hierarch may step in and name bishops for the fellow Eastern Catholic church that needs one.

It is the prerogative of the Pope, and his alone to initiate the process. If the Pope so chooses no gathering of clergy and laity for the purpose of nominating or appealing for a bishop is allowed or recognized, no dicastery shall meet to discuss it or make recommendations, no Nuncio will act. This has already happened at times in the Eastern Catholic churches.

 

[Hesychios]

I realize that this is not on topic but posts have to be responded to where they show up.

Just for clarification…

He does work in concert with the other bishops

Whom he appoints and supervises (and can remove).

… the Pope does not have the consolidated power some presume he has …

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him/her] be anathema.
Decrees of Vatican Council 1870AD, Cp 3

Ordination of Bishops and Eparchs

Main article: Appointment of Roman Catholic bishops

The appointment of bishops in the Catholic Church is a complicated process with several officials being invoved. In the Latin Church,

• the local synod, as a body itself entirely appointed by the Pope, acting in a purely consultative role, suggesting candidates but not selecting future bishops
• the papal nuncio (or apostolic delegate), **appointed by the Pope, serving him directly, authority entirely Papal delegated by the sitting Pope **
• various dicasteries of the Roman Curia, secretarial staff of the Pope, authority entirely Papal delegated by the sitting Pope
• and the Pope duh all take a part; since the 1970s it has become common practice for the nuncio to solicit (name removed by moderator)ut from clergy and laity within the vacant diocese.

This is actually a more centralized administration of the church than was to be had in 1516AD. It was not until concordats were concluded with various civil governments that the Papacy was able to secure the right to appoint bishops in many European countries. This became most strongly apparent in the years immediately following the Napoleonic era. In the subsequent half century a sitting Pope was able to call a Council of bishops and abbots to formalize this authority, most of the bishops attending having been chosen by the then reigning Pope.

In patriarchal and major archiepiscopal Eastern Churches, the permanent synod, the holy synod, and the patriarch or major archbishop also play a role in the selection of bishops.

Interesting also to note that outside of the home territories the Popes have reserved the right to appoint bishops for these churches, and some do not technically have a patriarch or home territory as such, and must rely on the Pope for appointments exclusively.

In those cases where the Pope has not seen fit to name bishops to replace the faithfully departed ones, the church actually exists with no hierarchy. Thus no local synod may chose a bishop and ask for his ordination on it’s own authority. No other sympathetic or concerned Catholic hierarch may step in and name bishops for the fellow Eastern Catholic church that needs one.

It is the prerogative of the Pope, and his alone to initiate the process. If the Pope so chooses no gathering of clergy and laity for the purpose of nominating or appealing for a bishop is allowed or recognized, no dicastery shall meet to discuss it or make recommendations, no Nuncio will act. This has already happened at times in the Eastern Catholic churches.

 

[Hisalone]

The path into death and destruction. That would be teaching error. Once error is taught, we are on the road to hell.

Gates hold in and gates keep out. So what do the gates of hell hold out and what do the gates of hell hold in.
Obvious it is not teaching error.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

At this point in time I doubt that.

He would most likely be wondering why one person claims to be the head of the entire church instead of working in concert with his partner bishops from Antioch, Jerusalem, etc concilliar fashion, as he did.

You know what St. Peter would think?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I believe in the Papacy.

The Papacy I believe in no longer exists in Rome.

The closest thing to it today is the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Pope Benedict could study how this office is exercised by consulting his friend Patriarch Bartholomew.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

. What I assert is that the western church has a systemic problem, QUOTE]The problem is that she is the Holy Catholic Church and is endlessly attacked from all side. The Catholic Church has taught the Gospel to the whole world. Cure the systemic problem in your Orthodox Church first. The Orthodox Church is not univeral but regional and isolated and wirthing since it’s rejecting of the Catholic Church. Also, don’t forget Constantinolple is no more and Rome is still Rome and Catholic till the end of time.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

What I assert is that the western church has a systemic problem, .

The problem is that she is the Holy Catholic Church and is endlessly attacked from all sides. The Catholic Church has taught the Gospel to the whole world. Cure the systemic problem in your Orthodox Church first. The Orthodox Church is not univeral but regional and isolated and withering since it’s rejecting of the Catholic Church. Also, don’t forget Constantinolple is no more and Rome is still Rome and Catholic till the end of time.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

You know what St. Peter would think?

Yes.

 

[josie_L]

Yes.

 

[josie_L]

Just for clarification… Whom he appoints and supervises (and can remove).

How do you know he hasn’t just approved those candidates set forth by the bishops? Moreover, how many bishops have been removed from office recently? There are too many key players that affect the Pope’s decision to believe that they have no impact on his decision making (this process is very similar to that described in the “council of Sardica”). .

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:

It might be helpful to read this in tandem with Vatican II as this is an incomplete picture, although I agree with the “universal jurisdicition” aspect as this coincides with the role the prime minister in the OT has in the Kingdom of Israel.