Martin Luther's 82nd thesis

[VARC]

In honor of the anniversary of the day when Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis on the cathedral door of Wittenburg, I want to bring up his 82nd thesis in particular.

Why does not the pope liberate everyone from purgatory for the sake of love (a most holy thing) and because of the supreme necessity of their souls? This would be morally the best of all reasons. Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter’s church, a very minor purpose.

 

[Prague]

So, just what is your point?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

In honor of the anniversary of the day when Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis on the cathedral door of Wittenburg, I want to bring up his 82nd thesis in particular.

Why does not the pope liberate everyone from purgatory for the sake of love (a most holy thing) and because of the supreme necessity of their souls? This would be morally the best of all reasons. Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter’s church, a very minor purpose.

Honoring a heretic?? the pope has nothing to do with Purgatory. Jesus Christ is the only one who can take anyone out of Purgatory, not the pope. As if Purgatory is a “Catholic” thing…To even knock the church to which St. Peter is buried, upside down for the sake of Our Lord, is very arrogant and extremely uneducated in the Catholic faith as well as the Vatican’s history. The Vatican is rich in art and history. Remember, the first 1500 years of Christianity was the Catholic church. Learn your history.

 

[gmcbroom]

I think what they’re getting at is,“Where is Purgatory in the Bible?” If I’m mistaken I apologize.

 

[Nominefili]

I think what they’re getting at is,“Where is Purgatory in the Bible?” If I’m mistaken I apologize.

No, I think what they’re getting at is this:

The Pope claimed that by purchasing indulgences, one could shorten one’s stay in Purgatory, or the stay of a loved one, so long as said indulgence had the papal stamp of approval. If this is the case, why didn’t the Pope, being Christ’s vicar on earth, just grant these to every christian, rather than trying to profit from it?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

No, I think what they’re getting at is this:

The Pope claimed that by purchasing indulgences, one could shorten one’s stay in Purgatory, or the stay of a loved one, so long as said indulgence had the papal stamp of approval. If this is the case, why didn’t the Pope, being Christ’s vicar on earth, just grant these to every christian, rather than trying to profit from it?

Here we go again…another misguided, misinformed Protestant who insists that popes sold indulgences…really…who teaches you these things??

 

[benidict]

In honor of the anniversary of the day when Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis on the cathedral door of Wittenburg, I want to bring up his 82nd thesis in particular.

Why does not the pope liberate everyone from purgatory for the sake of love (a most holy thing) and because of the supreme necessity of their souls? This would be morally the best of all reasons. Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter’s church, a very minor purpose.

question: were the 95 thesis put up on the door, before or after he ran off with his " rescued " nun from the convent? from what ive been led to understand, martin luther tried not to reform the church, for the sake of reformation, but for his own worldly lust. such as the love of a woman. sorry, i know its a cheap shot. but to honour someone like him is somewhat impossible. also seeing what his reformation led to is a reason to mourn the day he did this rather than honour it.

 

[Hisalone]

question: were the 95 thesis put up on the door, before or after he ran off with his " rescued " nun from the convent? from what ive been led to understand, martin luther tried not to reform the church, for the sake of reformation, but for his own worldly lust. such as the love of a woman. sorry, i know its a cheap shot. but to honour someone like him is somewhat impossible. also seeing what his reformation led to is a reason to mourn the day he did this rather than honour it.

Luther wanted debate on justification.
You prove that Catholics today like yesterday want no part of that discussion.

 

[mpernot]

In honor of the anniversary of the day when Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis on the cathedral door of Wittenburg, I want to bring up his 82nd thesis in particular.

Why does not the pope liberate everyone from purgatory for the sake of love (a most holy thing) and because of the supreme necessity of their souls? This would be morally the best of all reasons. Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter’s church, a very minor purpose.

Usually, you have to do something good to have the word “honor” attached to it…

The pope is the leader of Jesus’ church on Earth. This position does not give him authority over the disposition of souls; God is the only one that gets to decide that disposition.

Your follow-up will undoubtedly be about indulgences. From the CCC:

CCC 1471: *The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” *

CCC 1478: An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.

Indulgences are not “get out of jail free” cards that the pope creates at will. God’s grace is the only way to create indulgences; the pope, as leader of the church, is merely in charge of their distribution. This is pretty much the first sentence of 1478. Notice the last sentence of 1478, further emphasizing that the ability to distribute God’s grace is not the same as being able to create it or decide the eternal fate of anyone.

My understanding is that indulgences were being misused at the time of Luther’s break from the church by being sold (just because popes are infallible doesn’t mean that they can’t sin). This does not change what they truly are or how they work. This 82nd thesis does not appear to be all that well informed on real Catholic teaching; it makes me wonder if Luther really knew what he was walking away from…

 

[mpernot]

Luther wanted debate on justification.
You prove that Catholics today like yesterday want no part of that discussion.

As long as non-Catholic Christians continue to adhere to man-made doctrines that directly contradict Sacred Scripture and 1500 years of Christian tradition on the subject (Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura), there really isn’t much to discuss. One can’t just make up their own religion; it was as theologically irresponsible in Luther’s time as it is now.

 

[The_Reginator]

Luther wanted debate on justification.
You prove that Catholics today like yesterday want no part of that discussion.

We do not determine theology and dogma through debate and discussion.
God himself created a Divine institution, the Church, to teach his truths. We cannot waver on this truth. We must always follow Church teachings and not trust in our own human interpretations of Holy Scripture.
(The very reason I converted from Anglicanism to the One True Church was because I realized that God created a teaching Church.)

 

[Guyonthestreet]

We do not determine theology and dogma through debate and discussion.

What was going on in the ecumenical councils then?

 

[Hisalone]

What was going on in the ecumenical councils then?

Debate and discussion were common in Luthers day.
Posting thesis on church door was the way these discussions were started.

 

[josie_L]

Luther wanted debate on justification.
You prove that Catholics today like yesterday want no part of that discussion.

Luther debated Johann Eck on many matters of faith, but most especially about justification (I believe it was in 1520, three years after he posted his 95 theses). Luther lost by the way (i.e., he got his behind kicked theologically-speaking).

 

[Hisalone]

Luther debated Johann Eck on many matters of faith, but most especially about justification (I believe it was in 1520, three years after he posted his 95 theses). Luther lost by the way (i.e., he got his behind kicked theologically-speaking).

How do you say this? What source has made this accessment?

 

[VARC]

Honoring a heretic?? the pope has nothing to do with Purgatory. Jesus Christ is the only one who can take anyone out of Purgatory, not the pope. As if Purgatory is a “Catholic” thing…To even knock the church to which St. Peter is buried, upside down for the sake of Our Lord, is very arrogant and extremely uneducated in the Catholic faith as well as the Vatican’s history. The Vatican is rich in art and history. Remember, the first 1500 years of Christianity was the Catholic church. Learn your history.

Aren’t you the one who plagiarized Dave Armstrong? You don’t have the credibility to call anybody ignorant.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here we go again…another misguided, misinformed Protestant who insists that popes sold indulgences…really…who teaches you these things??

The Internet.

History

Door of the Schlosskirche (castle church) in Wittenberg to which Luther is said to have nailed his 95 Theses on the 31st of October 1517, sparking the Reformation.In 1516–17, Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar and papal commissioner for indulgences, was sent to Germany by the Roman Catholic Church to sell indulgences to raise money to rebuild St Peter’s Basilica in Rome.[1] Roman Catholic theology stated that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man;[2] and that only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man.[3] The benefits of good works could be obtained by donating money to the church.

On 31 October, 1517, Martin Luther wrote to Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, protesting the sale of indulgences. He enclosed in his letter a copy of his “Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences,” which came to be known as The 95 Theses. Hans Hillerbrand writes that Luther had no intention of confronting the church, but saw his disputation as a scholarly objection to church practices, and the tone of the writing is accordingly “searching, rather than doctrinaire.”[4] Hillerbrand writes that there is nevertheless an undercurrent of challenge in several of the theses, particularly in Thesis 86, which asks: “Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?”[4]

Luther objected to a saying attributed to Johann Tetzel that "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory [also attested as ‘into heaven’] springs."5] He insisted that, since forgiveness was God’s alone to grant, those who claimed that indulgences absolved buyers from all punishments and granted them salvation were in error. Christians, he said, must not slacken in following Christ on account of such false assurances.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Day

 

[VARC]

No, I think what they’re getting at is this:

The Pope claimed that by purchasing indulgences, one could shorten one’s stay in Purgatory, or the stay of a loved one, so long as said indulgence had the papal stamp of approval. If this is the case, why didn’t the Pope, being Christ’s vicar on earth, just grant these to every christian, rather than trying to profit from it?

That is what Luther was asking and it was a good question. The fact that the Pope claimed his indulgences could free a fellow brother or sister in Christ from the suffering of purgatory would suggest he would help those poor souls out of charity. Instead he used his supposed power to raise money to build a church.

Whatever your feelings about Luther, he was right to point out that absurdity. I’m glad the Roman Catholic Church has repented of that evil because of the reproof of this “heretic”. God bless him.

 

[Hisalone]

Whatever your feelings about Luther, he was right to point out that absurdity. I’m glad the Roman Catholic Church has repented of that evil because of the reproof of this “heretic”. God bless him.

You are sadly mistaken. The Roman Catholic Church has never been wrong about anything, ever. You see Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. Never mind that this verse doesnt seem to mean what we say it means because Jesus did not give you the authority to interpret what He said. He gave that authority to His magesterium. The Catholic Church never ever taught the sale of indulgences. Bishops and priests throughout Europe did sell indulgences with the approval of the pope, after all he had to get his Basilica built, but that wasnt the Catholic Church teaching that was only some of the authorities of the Catholic Church who did this. Yes even though many of them bought their ecclesiactical offices and then charged taxes to pay for these offices they still were a line of apostolic succession that extenteded all the way back to the original apostles. There may not be a written record of the apostles teaching purgatory and the treasury of merit however there is every indication that they intended to so by our tradition which we of course use to make the word of God no effect. So you see your post is not correct.

 

[VARC]

You are sadly mistaken. The Roman Catholic Church has never been wrong about anything, ever. You see Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. Never mind that this verse doesnt seem to mean what we say it means because Jesus did not give you the authority to interpret what He said. He gave that authority to His magesterium. The Catholic Church never ever taught the sale of indulgences. Bishops and priests throughout Europe did sell indulgences with the approval of the pope, after all he had to get his Basilica built, but that wasnt the Catholic Church teaching that was only some of the authorities of the Catholic Church who did this. Yes even though many of them bought their ecclesiactical offices and then charged taxes to pay for these offices they still were a line of apostolic succession that extenteded all the way back to the original apostles. There may not be a written record of the apostles teaching purgatory and the treasury of merit however there is every indication that they intended to so by our tradition which we of course use to make the word of God no effect. So you see your post is not correct.

Well you got their talking points down pretty good. Joseph Goebbels could do no better.