Martin Luther's 82nd thesis

[guanophore]

Do you really think God’s instrument would’ve called for the enslavement and torture of all Jews, which was quite contrary to his earlier messages of peace, love and forgiveness?

Give it a rest, Ephel! It is clear you have a lot of hostility about Luther, but that is not the topic of the thread. Let’s focus on the 82nd Thesis, can we?

 

[guanophore]

The Fruits of Martin Luther and Hitler…

Please don’t encourage the derailing of the thread. This has nothing to do with the 82nd thesis.

 

[guanophore]

So what if Hitler was born a Catholic? The world was mostly Catholic then and he loved his Catholic faith so much that he killed his fellow Catholics. Hitler had a supreme hatred for Catholics. He actually converted to Protestanism when he came into power. So he died Protestant. But so what?

You know, you really do appear to be proving the point that you are afraid to talk about the OP. Why do you think you cannot have a reasoned discussion about 82? if you think someone on the thread has misrepresented indulgences, why not address that? You are blowing so much smoke getting off topic, that you really look like you are avoiding.

True, that what Hitler was born as is of no relevance, as his disdain for not only the RC church, but Christianity in general, is clear as day.

I would, however, like you to provide some kind of proof of your claim that he “converted to Protestantism when he came into power”…

This is a just request, but PLEASE TAKE IT TO ANOTHER THREAD!

 

[guanophore]

Is it safe to say that Trent was a reaction, in part to Luther, and to the abuses he brought to light? Would you further consider Trent a successful reform of the Catholic Church?

Jon

One of the actions of Trent was to clarify the meaning of salvation by grace, which was necessary to combat the resurgence of Pelagianism in Europe at the time.

Another necessary action was to revoke the act of monetary donation as a basis for indulgence. This prevented the appearance that indulgences could be “sold” as was also rampant. While charitable contributions are still considered part of the “good works” that befit repentance, they are no longer tied to the concept of remitting the temporal punishment for sins.

 

[guanophore]

… in spite of your most glorious reformers.

This seems unnecessarily provocative and not supportive of beneficial dialogue.

Luther thought he’d bring the Catholic church to it’s knees because he thought that 1500 years of Christianity was wrong.

This is simply an erroneous, bigoted, and baseless statement. Not only does it reflect narrow minded ignorance, but it is off topic.

doing the devil's work, but that's about what I would attribute him as doing, and only that.

You know, you really seem to be working hard to avoid the topic.

 

[guanophore]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Go back to your other position of knowing very little about Luther, except he was a heretic. It is much more honest and believable.

Jon

Unfortunately, experience has shown that very little about OTCA is honest or believable.

I don’t want to get into name-calling, but when she says things like Luther wanted to bring the CC to its knees, there’s just nothing to support that POV, certainly nothing Luther claimed or wrote. It simply isn’t right to lay motive on someone without evidence.
Now, if she has evidence, Luther- “I will bring Rome to its knees”, or some such, then I will admit I was wrong.

Jon

Well, as much as I agree that it isn’t right to lay motive without evidence, that seems to be the modus operandi of this individual. I urge you to consider the source, and avoid derailing the thread. If necessary, the constant violation of forum rules may need to be reported. In the meantime, we all need to avoid getting sucked into it. One must consider that she may not be entirely stable.

I’m feeling increasaingly irratable at what I view as religious predudice and intolerance from some of the members here. I apologize.

Let’s all try to help each other, as it seems to be affecting all of us. Let us recognize that our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers. Our Lord has already triumphed over them in the cross. We need only stand against evil, and it will flee. One way we can stand firm is to work to stay on topic and avoid getting drawn into petty prejudice.

Do you guys just wing it and write whatever you want to?

OTCA does. Beware. She pulls things out of thin air, and does not cite sources.

It also seems like a mighty good way to avoid the topic.

This is abuse of the highest order, we already understand the Holy Theotokos’ role in salvation history. Hardly the sort of thing to justify damning ones neighbors over.

I agree, but can we not further “abuse” and get back on topic?

 

[LutheranDK]

This is a just request, but PLEASE TAKE IT TO ANOTHER THREAD!

Point taken. I just didn’t think he should get away with making such claims without being called on them.

 

[Reuben_J]

You are sadly mistaken. The Roman Catholic Church has never been wrong about anything, ever. You see Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. Never mind that this verse doesnt seem to mean what we say it means because Jesus did not give you the authority to interpret what He said. He gave that authority to His magesterium. The Catholic Church never ever taught the sale of indulgences. Bishops and priests throughout Europe did sell indulgences with the approval of the pope, after all he had to get his Basilica built, but that wasnt the Catholic Church teaching that was only some of the authorities of the Catholic Church who did this. Yes even though many of them bought their ecclesiactical offices and then charged taxes to pay for these offices they still were a line of apostolic succession that extenteded all the way back to the original apostles. There may not be a written record of the apostles teaching purgatory and the treasury of merit however there is every indication that they intended to so by our tradition which we of course use to make the word of God no effect. So you see your post is not correct.

I am quite thick in the skin and sarcasm would not knock me crazy so I don’t know but after reading this post I find it has an uncanny objective truth which I could not have said better. This poster has brilliantly defended a Catholic position. Is this divine retribution then that such strongly objective truth can be sprouted out from the mouth of a virulent Protestant who would find every chance to slander the Catholic Church?

Thus since the statement in the post is ironically right it seems therefore all the discussion so far are superfluous and the rest even though full of good substancse are way out of the topic in question.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sorry I mistake him for the OP.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Honoring a heretic?? the pope has nothing to do with Purgatory. Jesus Christ is the only one who can take anyone out of Purgatory, not the pope. As if Purgatory is a “Catholic” thing…To even knock the church to which St. Peter is buried, upside down for the sake of Our Lord, is very arrogant and extremely uneducated in the Catholic faith as well as the Vatican’s history. The Vatican is rich in art and history. Remember, the first 1500 years of Christianity was the Catholic church. Learn your history.

Did you?

They supported slavery, the conquest of the new world, the crusades, the death of heretics which Jesus and no Apostle ever supported and sought worldly power to gain money and things of this Earth. The good things members have done are no way to excuse the great evils. Sadly the Protestants had the right ideas and implimented them horribly so they are as much an evil and the Catholic Church to the Spiritual Body of Christ.

Can you show me from the scriptures where the followers of Christ were ordered to or even approved in killing a heretic, oddly I can’t find or know of any, but I could be wrong.

As for this issue the Pope is the head of the Church, what the Church says is loosed on Earth and in heaven if one takes the line of succession as true so He can and could at any time get people from purgatory or Hell itself just by issuing the decree in the name of Jesus. If one believes that as core doctrine. And could do so free.

Since they did sell indulgences the Church approved of that or they would have treated these people as heretics, so they sold indulgences. The Pope may or may not have approved it and that is not the point, the Pope is the head of the Church as the Catholics say so the buck stops there. Every action of the Church good or evil rests there first and foremost.

Protestant denominations also did evils like the Witch Trials of Salem and the like, and have ample issues, but that is another matter we are talking the Roman Catholic Church here.

 

[adrift]

A posed picture which Hitler himself used often
to show what a good “practicing Catholic” he was.

    Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was a fellow Roman Catholic.  But this was definitely not the case so long as he was in power

Your statement are historically incorrect

We must remember that the Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

In another, similar statement, Einstein referred explicitly to the Catholic Church (Lapide, p. 251). This is an extraordinary testimony by an agnostic German scientist of Jewish heritage. Even though there were traitors in her ranks, the Church still opposed the Nazi movement…
Not trusting the new regime, the Vatican signed a Concordat with the Reich on July 20, 1933 in an attempt to protect the Church’s rights in Germany. But the Nazis quickly violated its articles. In Lent 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical “Mit brennender Sorge” (With burning sorrow) with the help of German bishops and Cardinal Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII). It was smuggled into Germany and read in all German Catholic churches at the same hour on Palm Sunday 1937. It did not explicitly mention Hitler or Nazism, but it firmly condemned the Nazi doctrines. On September 20, 1938, Pius XI told German pilgrims that no Christian can take part in anti-Semitism, since spiritually all Christians are Semites.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Bottom line here is this. If Luther was doing God’s work, he wouldn’t of failed miserably at trying to reform the Catholic church. The church Christ established. Because God doesn’t fail.

I couldn’t disagree more. I think many of the things he mentioned were reformed. And, he did more than that. He impacted the worlds of politics, civil rights, women’s rights, public education, linguistics, politics and more. He helped define the role of the individual conscience, furthered the concept of self government. I’m not sure there is such a thing as democracy without a Martin Luther. I am not sure a Ghandi, a Mandela, or a Martin Luther King ever comes to be without a Martin Luther

 

[adrift]

Since they did sell indulgences the Church approved of that or they would have treated these people as heretics, so they sold indulgences. The Pope may or may not have approved it and that is not the point, the Pope is the head of the Church as the Catholics say so the buck stops there. Every action of the Church good or evil rests there first and foremost.

Indulgences were not sold. This is spread by those who do not understand the history of indulgences.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Indulgences were not sold. This is spread by those who do not understand the history of indulgences.

Wikipedia does not lie… because it is neither Catholic nor Protestant.

In 1516–17, Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar and papal commissioner for indulgences, was sent to Germany by the Roman Catholic Church to sell indulgences to raise money to rebuild St Peter’s Basilica in Rome

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Day

Luther objected to a saying attributed to Johann Tetzel that “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory [also attested as ‘into heaven’] springs.”

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Wikipedia does not lie… because it is neither Catholic nor Protestant.

In 1516–17, Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar and papal commissioner for indulgences, was sent to Germany by the Roman Catholic Church to sell indulgences to raise money to rebuild St Peter’s Basilica in Rome

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Day

Luther objected to a saying attributed to Johann Tetzel that “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory [also attested as ‘into heaven’] springs.”

Johann Tetzel was a man who had plenty of problems on his own. He was far from a representative of the church.

Secondly being “sent by the Roman Catholic Church” is not a good description. The church did not send him, a MAN did. A man who was making a mistake. There were far better ways to explain what an indulgence really is without having to use someone like Johann Tetzel to twist and distort its meaning to scare people out of their money.

The idea of an indulgence is not a bad idea. The basic idea is that you are making an act of sacrifice for the church, and in this act of sacrifice and obedience, your soul is given over to a better state because you acted in faith and purity. It shouldn’t matter if its a few cents to thousands of dollars. Unfortunately unscrupulous people abused this system to raise money, but the Catholic Church as a WHOLE did not do this. There were many place this abuse wasn’t happening at that time. You can also see where Martin Luther was mistaken in this thesis. The Pope doesn’t have the ability to free people from purgatory or grant gaces to people’s soul because it’s not a magical transformation, it requires the act of christian obedience and charity to God. Because of this action their heart is softened to God. The Pope can’t magically wiggle his fingers and make people feel more charitable or willing to sacrifice for God. And he certainly can’t magically life the blinders on people’s hearts that the act itself does.

I think we need to look at all of this in the proper light. This abuse wasn’t as widespread as many would have you believe. Besides, keep in mind the Pope was trying to keep people in line over distances that stretched farther and more languages than the Roman Empire, and this was in the days before email, fax machines, telephones, cameras, cars, airplanes…well, you get the idea.

 

[JonNC]

One of the actions of Trent was to clarify the meaning of salvation by grace, which was necessary to combat the resurgence of Pelagianism in Europe at the time.

Another necessary action was to revoke the act of monetary donation as a basis for indulgence. This prevented the appearance that indulgences could be “sold” as was also rampant. While charitable contributions are still considered part of the “good works” that befit repentance, they are no longer tied to the concept of remitting the temporal punishment for sins.

Thanks for your excellent points on a number of posts here.

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by OneTrueCathApos
So what if Hitler was born a Catholic? The world was mostly Catholic then and he loved his Catholic faith so much that he killed his fellow Catholics. Hitler had a supreme hatred for Catholics. He actually converted to Protestanism when he came into power. So he died Protestant. But so what?

It seems like the same kind of disunity you find in Protestant churches. Christians are sinners in process; therefore, on this side of glory all Christian communities will have disunity in life and doctrine.

 

[JonNC]

Fear not. She is not influencing the views of very many. Most of us here hold the Catholic Church in too high a regard for that.
Jon

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Right on, man. Right on.

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Whitacre Girl,

Secondly being “sent by the Roman Catholic Church” is not a good description. The church did not send him, a MAN did.

A man with Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction over the entire church everywhere, from whose decisions there is no recourse?

A man who was making a mistake.

A man with Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction over the entire church everywhere, from whose decisions there is no recourse?

…keep in mind the Pope was trying to keep people in line over distances that stretched farther and more languages than the Roman Empire, and this was in the days before email, fax machines, telephones, cameras, cars, airplanes…well, you get the idea.

If the man can’t handle it, what is the point of claiming this kind of power?

We teach, moreover, and declare that, by the disposition of God, the Roman Church possesses supreme ordinary authority over all Churches, and that the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is true episcopal jurisdiction is immediate in its character
(Enchir., n. 1827).

"Since God has given us the papacy, let us enjoy it."