Martin Luther's CHARACTER?

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Everyone knows that faith alone can mean a faith that results in works.

And most everyone on this board rejects Faith Alone if it means a faith without any works, or love of God. If Faith Alone means Faith without anything else.

So lets not get caught up into the endless circle of Catholics accusing Protestants of believing you don’t have to obey or love God just believe in Him, and Protestants accusing Catholics of trying to earn their way into heaven. Both are canards and dishonest to use as an attack. (no one can honestly attack the Catholic Church, it is easy to attack evil Catholics or misrepresentations of Catholicism)

A Catholic would almost always agree with those quotes that is why we affirm most those guys as Saints, we read those guys and try to emulate their lives of Faith, Hope and Love.

Now why don’t we get back to the topic at hand which I believe is Martin Luther’s character.

In Christ
Scylla
 
1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work.
 
Calvinator said:
Have you ever read what Luther had to say about this issue?
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From October 1979 to the present day I’ve read works on the Reformation with an emphasis on Martin Luther’s works - Erlangen had 63 volumes; over a 20 year period I systematically read 55 of those volumes. Jaroslav Pelikan a former Lutheran had several volumes; I had read some of them and am re-reading them presently - I’m waiting for Volume 3 on InterLibrary Loan at the moment. I have read some of the Holman volumes of Luther’s actual writings with commentary. I trust that that answers your question.

Yes, I know what he stated about having to add the word alone to say what it should say in the German but what he is saying is that it should state “by faith alone” which was his own invention and he stated many times that those who would not accept “MY EVANGEL” were going to go to hell.

The Bible Alone does not teach THE BIBLE ALONE nor does it teach BY FAITH ALONE.
 
So, can we agree that it takes a combination of both faith and works to save us??? I can live with that. Anyone else? 😃
 
donnyblake said:
So, can we agree that it takes a combination of both faith and works to save us??? I can live with that. Anyone else? 😃
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i can agree with the statement that is takes a faith resulting in works. we do not get (and here is where i think the big difference is between catholics and protestants) any more “saving grace” because of what we do. the grace comes by means of faith. if that faith is genuine and imparts grace upon us… works will accompany it. works do nothing in the process of God’s grace coming upon us. that is the line i think.
 
HailMary said:
1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work.
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of course we know we have to read the Bible as a whole and not just take verses out that prove OUR point (isn’t this what catholics on this board accuse protestants of doing all the time??). yes, God will judge us according to our works. some will be burned up and some will pass through the fire and be refined. i believe the Bible teaches the ones done in faith are the ones that pass through and bring glory to God (not salvation to us).
 
scylla said:
Everyone knows that faith alone can mean a faith that results in works.

And most everyone on this board rejects Faith Alone if it means a faith without any works, or love of God. If Faith Alone means Faith without anything else.

So lets not get caught up into the endless circle of Catholics accusing Protestants of believing you don’t have to obey or love God just believe in Him, and Protestants accusing Catholics of trying to earn their way into heaven. Both are canards and dishonest to use as an attack. (no one can honestly attack the Catholic Church, it is easy to attack evil Catholics or misrepresentations of Catholicism)
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👍 👍 👍
 
Rev 2:19-20
I know your works, your love, faith, service, and endurance, and that your last works are greater than the first.
Yet I hold this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, who teaches and misleads my servants to play the harlot and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

If it was “faith alone” and morality wouldn’t matter (and I know a plethora of protestants who do in fact believe this), Jesus wouldn’t have bothered with anything else. He would have just focused on increasing their faith if their works strictly flowed from it. But it doesn’t since there is something this world called free will and temptations.
 
HailMary said:
[SIGN]AMEN[/SIGN]
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So you must reject what Jesus told the woman who washed his feet with her hair and the man who hung on the cross beside him. This is what happens when we believe what people tell us we should because of the church instead of reading Scripture. This is what Paul warns Timothy of and it is happening to many of you.
 
HailMary said:
Rev 2:19-20
I know your works, your love, faith, service, and endurance, and that your last works are greater than the first.
Yet I hold this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, who teaches and misleads my servants to play the harlot and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

If it was “faith alone” and morality wouldn’t matter (and I know a plethora of protestants who do in fact believe this), Jesus wouldn’t have bothered with anything else. He would have just focused on increasing their faith if their works strictly flowed from it. But it doesn’t since there is something this world called free will and temptations.
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Don’t just pick and choose verses. Read the entire Letter of Paul to the Ephesians and then give me your schpeel on how works can save you.
 
Nella said:
Don’t just pick and choose verses. Read the entire Letter of Paul to the Ephesians and then give me your schpeel on how works can save you.
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Amen! to read Ephesians and believe Pauls preaching one must cease to be from Rome.
 
NELLA: So, James is a lier when he states: “Faith without works is dead”? I’d like to see you try to twish this verse. Please find anything in James that says Faith Alone is satiafactory for salvation. One verse if you can. Thanks.
 
donnyblake said:
NELLA: So, James is a lier when he states: “Faith without works is dead”? I’d like to see you try to twish this verse. Please find anything in James that says Faith Alone is satiafactory for salvation. One verse if you can. Thanks.
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Read the whole letter!
We don’t deny the importance of works. But works certainly don’t catapult us closer to heaven. They give glory to GOD!
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Amen! to read Ephesians and believe Pauls preaching one must cease to be from Rome.
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Only if one misunderstands or misrepresents Catholicism.

So yes if I am dishonest and misrepresent Catholicism as if we believe in salvation that is earned by our works then yes I must leave it. But that is if I am dishonest.

As a Catholic I can read Ephesians 2:8-9 and as a Catholic I can affirm Eph 2:10 also and it all fits together. There is never a conflict with true Catholicism and the Bible, only when a strawman is put forth.

Why not get back to the topic at hand unless you would like to PM me I would be happy to discuss why only by being dishonest can one disagree with Catholicism or by advocating an evil God.

In Christ
Scylla
 
Nella said:
Don’t just pick and choose verses. Read the entire Letter of Paul to the Ephesians and then give me your schpeel on how works can save you.
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I’m not suggesting works alone save you. Its more than works, faith, or love alone.

Salvation is not 1-D. All of the following have to do with your salvation and God will be your judge.

Eucharistic:
John 6:54-55
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Hope:
Romans 8:24
For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?

Faith:
Rom 13:11
And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed

Fear and Trembling:
Phil 2:12
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Our Works:
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

more on works:
2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Baptism
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

we are saved everytime we confess our sins
John 20:22-23
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Love:
Rev 2:4
Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first.
coupled with with St. Paul says:
1 Cor 13:13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

we are saved through the Church since the Church is ONE with CHRIST:
Ephesians 5:22-32
This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church

Since you like Ephesians, maybe you will like this:
3:10
so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

Does your “church”, whatever it may be, claim to be revealing the manifold wisdom of God to the Angels?
 
So, faith without works gets you to Heaven??? Is faith without works a living faith? If you read ALL of Paul, especially the end of much of what you’re quoting, even Paul makes it clear faith alone is not enough. Read ALL of Paul’s letters please. Don’t pick and choose verses. Paul agrees with James more than you might realize or have been taught. Thanks.
 
HailMary said:
I’m not suggesting works alone save you. Its more than works, faith, or love alone.

Salvation is not 1-D. All of the following have to do with your salvation and God will be your judge.

Eucharistic:
John 6:54-55
Romans 8:24
Rom 13:11
Phil 2:12
2 Cor 5:10
2 Corinthians 11:15
John 3:5
John 20:22-23
Rev 2:4
1 Cor 13:13
Ephesians 5:22-32
3:10
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A dangerous amount of prooftexting there!!!
One could build a whole belief system around these one sentence clips, and yet compared with the whole of scripture the story would be like what you get after playing the telephone game…It would miss the mark greatly. You go ahead and take a sentence or two at a time i’ll take instructional letters as a whole like Ephesian’s.
 
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