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Psychotheosophy
Guest
What is the difference between,
Martyrdom and suicide?
Martyrdom and suicide?
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Scoobyshme
Guest
Martyrdom is dying for your faith.
Suicide is dying for yourself (to alleviate suffering, to hurt your loved ones and “show them”).
Suicide is dying for yourself (to alleviate suffering, to hurt your loved ones and “show them”).
T
Thing
Guest
Another small facet;
The martyr does not want to die.
The suicide does want to die.
The martyr does not want to die.
The suicide does want to die.
M
mchale
Guest
One last final tidbit.
Suicide is the deliberate killing of oneself.
For Christians, Martyrdom is being killed for your faith. A true Martyr never seeks death, though he (or she) might not try to avoid it.
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Bill
Suicide is the deliberate killing of oneself.
For Christians, Martyrdom is being killed for your faith. A true Martyr never seeks death, though he (or she) might not try to avoid it.
–
Bill
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Serafina17
Guest
So what about St. Francis, and his ardent desire to die a martyr? Was that wrong? (Especially because he took measures to insure that he would be killed, which ended up not happening)
What if someone kills himself as an excape from a painful death. This person doesn’t want to die.
What if someone kills himself as an excape from a painful death. This person doesn’t want to die.
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Thing
Guest
When Psychotheosophy OP places suicide and martyrdom in the same sentence I assume he is viewing an act which could be seen as either suicide or as martrydom depending on ones point of view.
Of course, generally, suicide,taken on its own could be the result of temporary insanity, chemical substances etc., but I take him to mean the connection and contrast when viewing a particular act as either an act of suicide of an act of martyrdom.
I’m not sure about St. Francis. He was very enthusiastic. Martyrs have a direct entry to heaven and possibly a serious blessing for having been persecuted for the faith and I’m sure lots of people would not complain too much about having both those things. St. Francis could have kept going, he got sick, I think, but not so much that it should have stopped him in his tracks if he was serious. Possibly he realized that some people are in the place and time to be called to martyrdom, not of their own choice as everyone must do all that his faith and the law of the land allows to save his own life.
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Desertsailor
Guest
It wasn’t suicide for the Chrisitians who welcomed the lions in the arena and didn’t run from them.
Martyrdom is dying for the love of Christ.
Suicide is dying from despair and anger or hate.
Martyrdom is dying for the love of Christ.
Suicide is dying from despair and anger or hate.
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rwoehmke
Guest
Are we talking martyrdom by someone else’s hand for the Christian Faith or Martyrdom by one’s own hand for ones Islamic Faith? Why else would Martyrdom and suicide be used in the same sentence? 
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choy
Guest
martyrdom isn’t about death. its about standing up for God inspite of death
suicide is all about death. that person just wants to die
suicide is all about death. that person just wants to die
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EricFilmer
Guest
Suicide often involves falling into despair, and despair is commonly defined as loss of all hope. When one considers that hope is a theological virtue, the spiritual problem of falling into despair is apparent.
On the other hand, despair is not an issue associated with martyrdom. The martyrs are motivated by the desire to bear witness to their Christian Faith, even at the cost of their lives. They exercise the virtue of hope because they have faith that God will vindicate them.
On the other hand, despair is not an issue associated with martyrdom. The martyrs are motivated by the desire to bear witness to their Christian Faith, even at the cost of their lives. They exercise the virtue of hope because they have faith that God will vindicate them.
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EricFilmer
Guest
To elaborate further to what Desertsailor has stated, suicide often involves falling into despair, and despair is commonly defined as loss of all hope. When one considers that hope is a theological virtue, the spiritual problem of falling into despair is apparent. I’m speaking in general terms here, because not every suicide involves dispair, and not every person who acts out in despair is culpable for it (due to pyschological reasons or such).
On the other hand, despair is not an issue associated with martyrdom. The martyrs are motivated by the desire to bear witness to their Christian Faith, even at the cost of their lives. They exercise the virtue of hope because they have faith that God will vindicate them.
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snowbee
Guest
Martyr’s do and did want to die for their faith. Some of the earlier christian martyrs wished for themselves to be caught so they could die for their faith. After Christianity became the religion of “the empire” the famous early monks who were hermits in the desert/mountains chose to die to the world because they could no longer be martyr’d.
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Thing
Guest
You do not have the option of especially seeking to become a martyr. The model is Christs own life. His particular mission was to the Chosen People. He did not have the option of running from Palestine, though He was free to avoid capture when He wished even to the extent of becoming invisable to His persuers. When The time came for Him to die. He could not leave. It was not an option. He did everything that was possible to Him to avoid his death, so that not even a charge of trying to have himself killed could be leveled against Him.
In the Garden before He was to be arrested He sweat blood at the knowledge of the manner of His death and did the last thing required of Him to avoid His death though He knew He must die. He asked that this cup might pass from Him. Then He waited for death to arrive.
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snowbee
Guest
Could Christ have avoided being crucified? If he so wished it, but that would mean he wouldn’t be following the Father’s plan which would make him not of the Trinity.
He was a willing sacrifice. Most of your examples are what we would call examples of “low christology.” It reminds us of His human nature. But just because he went willingly but wishing the “cup might pass from Him” does not mean that martyrdom has to be a terrible thing in all circumstances.
In the early Church Christians made huge impressions on the people by two things.
Martyrdom: When it seemed this Jesus movement wasn’t picking up when they started being executed they had the opportunity to do it in front of entire towns, their convictions to remaining to death for their faith shook the people and aided in conversions. One might go so far as to say if the early martyrs hadn’t made such a scene with their martyrdoms the Church could have grown stagnant and not grown.
The second is values, but that’s off topic.
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Thing
Guest
I don’t mind if martyrdom is terrible or not terrible, it does not matter. The point of this conversation is the need to do what is right no matter if that leads to a terrible death or to a peaceful life. The motivation for your action must always be to do what is right regardless of the consequences. We are all going to die and many of us will die painful deaths so there is nothing new in all of that. What is new is that we die for the right reason, whoever perseveres [in right] to the end will win. It is possible to fall at the last hurdle and die in the wrong.
You know the bit when the devil stands before God accusing His people. You could imagine him as the best prosecution laywer ever. If Jesus was as He needed to be, sinless, but that He also needed to die to save mankind, then He could not simply wander through palestine provoking the jewish leaders into killing Him. That would be giving fodder to the prosecution.
Jesus’ life was about fulfilling the Scriptures, as God of course, He did not need to do anything, this was the way He chose for Himself. When He sweat blood and prayed that this cup might pass He was not trying to avoid death He was doing everything possible, rather, according to the plan He laid out for Himself. He felt the need to record the fact in creation that He did not come to provoke His own death, He came in peace to fulfil His mission to His own people. So in the Garden He did the last thing necessary He sweat blood at the knowledge of His torture and He asked if there was any possible way left to avoid this cup. Obviously there was not and never would be. But we are talking about God and everything He does He does in its most perfect way.
I can just imagine the conversation in heaven between the devil and the defence for some martyr. The devil says; but he wanted to die, he just went where he never in the past had any business where he knew it was mortally dangerous and he tried hard to provoke those people into killing him. Then he tries to claim he was killed for his faith and should be a martyr. He was not even a priest or preacher who may have gone there for that reason of ministering his flock, but this man had no business in those parts, his only motivation was to be killed. And this is an abuse of the body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit and an abuse of the beatitude you said; blessed are those who are persecuted for seeking righteousness.
You see, you have to be careful in what you do or rather in why you do it.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
Pope John Paul II,
At a World Youth Day,
Described martyrdom.
There is red martyrdom: a severe one time event,
There is white martyrdom: a gradual process (with an end),
Similarly,
There could be a “red” suicide,
There could be a “white” suicide (e.g. slowly killing yourself by smoking)
Martyrdom is
Persevering through suffering,
Strengthening the will,
Regardless of how persuaded,
To reject that which is self-evident (all people naturally desire Life).
This is the Way of Life.
Suicide is
Persevering through suffering,
Weakening of will,
Regardless of how persuaded,
To accept that which is self-evident (all people naturally desire Life).
This is the way of death.
Lung cancer from smoking can be a legitimate deterrent from smoking.
However,
Some people can smoke their entire life,
And never get lung cancer,
But getting away with smoking,
One still remains on,
The way to death.
Relapse from quitting smoking,
May result in lung cancer,
But by continuing to will Life,
One still remains on
The Way to Life.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
Pope John Paul II,
At a World Youth Day,
Described martyrdom.
There is red martyrdom: a severe one time event,
There is white martyrdom: a gradual process (with an end),
Similarly,
There could be a “red” suicide,
There could be a “white” suicide (e.g. slowly killing yourself by smoking)
Martyrdom is
Persevering through suffering,
Strengthening the will,
Regardless of how persuaded,
To reject that which is self-evident (all people naturally desire Life).
This is the Way of Life.
Suicide is
Persevering through suffering,
Weakening the will,
Regardless of how persuaded,
To accept that which is self-evident (all people naturally desire Life).
This is the way of death.
Lung cancer from smoking can be a deterrent from smoking.
However,
Some people can smoke their entire life,
And never get lung cancer,
But getting away with smoking,
One still remains on,
The way to death.
Relapse from quitting smoking,
May result in lung cancer,
But by continuing to will Life,
One still remains on
The Way to Life.
At a World Youth Day,
Described martyrdom.
There is red martyrdom: a severe one time event,
There is white martyrdom: a gradual process (with an end),
Similarly,
There could be a “red” suicide,
There could be a “white” suicide (e.g. slowly killing yourself by smoking)
Martyrdom is
Persevering through suffering,
Strengthening the will,
Regardless of how persuaded,
To reject that which is self-evident (all people naturally desire Life).
This is the Way of Life.
Suicide is
Persevering through suffering,
Weakening the will,
Regardless of how persuaded,
To accept that which is self-evident (all people naturally desire Life).
This is the way of death.
Lung cancer from smoking can be a deterrent from smoking.
However,
Some people can smoke their entire life,
And never get lung cancer,
But getting away with smoking,
One still remains on,
The way to death.
Relapse from quitting smoking,
May result in lung cancer,
But by continuing to will Life,
One still remains on
The Way to Life.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
An addict may persevere in robbing a store,
In order to pay for his addiction.
He is a slave to feelings (of his body),
Not out of the freedom,
Of choosing Happiness,
Over unhappiness.
The Way to Life involves,
A “crucifixion” of the body.
Because Perfect Happiness,
Is not a worldly happiness.
An addict’s relapse is always forgivable,
As long as he remains united to,
The Way to Life.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
…And by forgiving the addict,
Regardless of if he continues to will Life,
We can find strength of will over,
Our own “slavery of feelings,”
And material possessions,
And choose Happiness,
Over unhappiness.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
…And
As forgiveness can strengthen the will of the contrite,
Martyrdom can be a remedy to,
One who has been,
Suicidal.
As forgiveness can strengthen the will of the contrite,
Martyrdom can be a remedy to,
One who has been,
Suicidal.
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