Martyred Romanovs ?

[HashemEchad]

The RO church has a category of things they can canonize people for, and one of them is “passion bearers”. The RC church doesn’t have this category, as I recall.

The Tsar once said (with typical Russian fatalism), that he always knew he was born on the feast day of St Job (RO church calendar, according to the Julian calendar), for a reason.

 

[Kaninchen]

Similarly, Nicholas II, through his antiJewish policies, made Russia an intolerable place for Jews (as well as others, I should add). This caused millions of Jews to flee Russia, go to America, and as a result, those Jews (my grandfather and grandmother included) were safe from Hitler, a mere 20 or so years later.

You neglect the fact that the pogroms actually drove very large numbers of Russian Jews into precisely those countries where they, their children and grandchildren would end up being transported to the Camps - had they remained in Russia, admittedly, many of them would have been victims of the Einsatzgruppen.

You also neglect the fact that the arrival of large numbers of ‘backward’ Russian Jews in the cities of Western Europe fed the development of ‘modern anti-Semitism’ - significantly in Karl Luger’s Vienna, about which a young Austrian later wrote:

As I was once strolling through the inner city, I suddenly happened upon an apparition in a long caftan with black hair locks.

Is this a Jew? was my first thought.

They surely didn’t look like that in Linz. I observed the man stealthily and cautiously. But the longer I stared at this alien face, examining it feature for feature, the more my first question was transformed into a new conception:

Is this a German?

As always in such cases I began to try to remove my doubts with books. For a few hellers I purchased the first antisemitic brochures of my life. Unfortunately, they all proceeded from the standpoint that in principle the reader was conversant with or even understood the Jewish question to a certain degree. Moreover, their tone was in most cases sufficient to recreate doubts in me, particularly because of the shallow and extraordinarily unscientific support for their assertions.
​

He went on to become quite famous.

Perhaps your sense of destiny is rather too individual.

 

[HashemEchad]

You neglect the fact that the pogroms actually drove very large numbers of Russian Jews into precisely those countries where they, their children and grandchildren would end up being transported to the Camps - had they remained in Russia, admittedly, many of them would have been victims of the Einsatzgruppen.

You also neglect the fact that the arrival of large numbers of ‘backward’ Russian Jews in the cities of Western Europe fed the development of ‘modern anti-Semitism’ - significantly in Karl Luger’s Vienna, about which a young Austrian later wrote:

As I was once strolling through the inner city, I suddenly happened upon an apparition in a long caftan with black hair locks.

Is this a Jew? was my first thought.

They surely didn’t look like that in Linz. I observed the man stealthily and cautiously. But the longer I stared at this alien face, examining it feature for feature, the more my first question was transformed into a new conception:

Is this a German?

As always in such cases I began to try to remove my doubts with books. For a few hellers I purchased the first antisemitic brochures of my life. Unfortunately, they all proceeded from the standpoint that in principle the reader was conversant with or even understood the Jewish question to a certain degree. Moreover, their tone was in most cases sufficient to recreate doubts in me, particularly because of the shallow and extraordinarily unscientific support for their assertions.
​

He went on to become quite famous.

Perhaps your sense of destiny is rather too individual.

While its true that large numbers of Jews fled Russia into other countries in Europe (though many also stayed in Russia), NONE of those countries were safe from the advance of the Nazis, since the Nazis took over MANY of those countries, and killed the Jews in them. As you admitted, even if they had stayed in Russia, the Nazis would have gotten them there, too.

Are you tryingt to imply that the “Ostjuden” fleeing into Western European countries are what provoked antisemitism?? I realize the assimilated German/other Western European Jews looked down on the rest of us, but to blame us for our own destruction??

 

[Kaninchen]

While its true that large numbers of Jews fled Russia into other countries in Europe (though many also stayed in Russia), NONE of those countries were safe from the advance of the Nazis, since the Nazis took over MANY of those countries, and killed the Jews in them. As you admitted, even if they had stayed in Russia, the Nazis would have gotten them there, too.

In other words, Nicholas and the pogroms were a good thing for HashemEchad’s family’s destiny (and those like them) and stuff everybody else.

Are you tryingt to imply that the “Ostjuden” fleeing into Western European countries are what provoked antisemitism?? I realize the assimilated German/other Western European Jews looked down on the rest of us, but to blame us for our own destruction??

I’m implying no more than I said - the influx of ‘Russians’ and ‘Poles’ added impetus to the development of ‘modern’ Jew hatred in Germany and Austria. I realize that, in trying to deflect ‘blame’ away from Nicholas and his pogroms, it’s necessary to try to make it appear that I’m blaming the victims of the pogroms but it won’t work.

 

[HashemEchad]

In other words, Nicholas and the pogroms were a good thing for HashemEchad’s family’s destiny (and those like them) and stuff everybody else.

I’m implying no more than I said - the influx of ‘Russians’ and ‘Poles’ added impetus to the development of ‘modern’ Jew hatred in Germany and Austria. I realize that, in trying to deflect ‘blame’ away from Nicholas and his pogroms, it’s necessary to try to make it appear that I’m blaming the victims of the pogroms but it won’t work.

There is a long history of contempt from assimilated German Jews directed toward Eastern European Jews, which sadly has often erupted in prejudice, even in America.

I was simply trying to ascertain if you held these hostilities, hence your comments. I am not trying to deflect any blame from the Tsar and his policies, but your comments sounded like you were trying to blame the “Ostjuden” for their own sufferings. There were many cases of assimilated German Jews (who felt themselves more German than Jewish) who chose to place the blame on “those backward, dirty, poor Russian Jews”.

Its sinas chinam, but I guess they were too assimilated to know that. Or care.

 

[Kaninchen]

There is a long history of contempt from assimilated German Jews directed toward Eastern European Jews, which sadly has often erupted in prejudice, even in America.

Well, I’ve never made it secret that I’m from A German/Italian-Jewish background. On the other hand . . .

I’m pretty confident that any examination of my posts would provide no evidence of me showing contempt for other Jews - if you want to find a Jewish poster who persistently passes judgment on other Jews, I would suggest you look elsewhere.

 

[HashemEchad]

Hitler did not despise Jews solely because of the Eastern European Jews. He also despised the assimilated German Jews (excuse me, “Germans of the Mosaic persuasion”) because many of them were involved in things that most German Gentiles found despicable, such as the cabarets and other hotbeds of immorality. (Interestingly, a similar situation exists here in America, where many assimilated Jews are active in things that many Gentiles find abhorrent.)

In their desire to refuse to see any role some of them may have played in Hitler’s rise (in his mind, anyway), the German Jews chose instead to blame the “Ostjuden”.

 

[Kaninchen]

Hitler did not despise Jews solely because of the Eastern European Jews. He also despised the assimilated German Jews (excuse me, “Germans of the Mosaic persuasion”) because many of them were involved in things that most German Gentiles found despicable, such as the cabarets and other hotbeds of immorality. (Interestingly, a similar situation exists here in America, where many assimilated Jews are active in things that many Gentiles find abhorrent.)

In their desire to refuse to see any role some of them may have played in Hitler’s rise (in his mind, anyway), the German Jews chose instead to blame the “Ostjuden”.

You seem to be on something of a ‘Pogrom’ at the moment - first ChosenPeople is, supposedly, a Nazi, now I’m part a Jewish world conspiracy to undermine Western Civilization!

Awesome!

 

[HashemEchad]

You seem to be on something of a ‘Pogrom’ at the moment - first ChosenPeople is, supposedly, a Nazi, now I’m part a Jewish world conspiracy to undermine Western Civilization!

Awesome!

Where did I call ‘chosenpeople’ a nazi? He and I got into a debate about whether or not zionism is truly Jewish.

And where did I say you were part of a conspiracy to undermine Western Civilization? Why are you putting words into my mouth that I never said?

 

[Kaninchen]

Where did I call ‘chosenpeople’ a nazi? He and I got into a debate about whether or not zionism is truly Jewish.

And where did I say you were part of a conspiracy to undermine Western Civilization? Why are you putting words into my mouth that I never said?

Err - perhaps you should read what you’ve written?

Save your judgments for people who might be impressed.

 

[valient_Lucy]

It sounds crazy to many Jews until I explain my sentiment, but I truly am very thankful for the Tsar and the situation the monarchist government created for Jews there at that time.

My grandfather used to complain about it, but I often pointed out to him that if the Tsar’s policies had not driven many Jews out of Russia, they would have died in Hitler’s concentration camps!

God works in mysterious ways, I always said.

Never thought of it that way!

However, just to remind everyone, the purpose of this thread is not to rehash history of 20th century Europe. I’m sure there’s another forum for that somewhere on the internet.

 

[HashemEchad]

Never thought of it that way!

However, just to remind everyone, the purpose of this thread is not to rehash history of 20th century Europe. I’m sure there’s another forum for that somewhere on the internet.

Thank you, and yes, I apologize for my part in unfortunately leading this thread off track.

Carry on!

 

[holdencaulfield]

Being new to Orthodoxy, I don’t know the exact answer, but AFAIK there are local saints (meaning, for a particular jurisdiction or place) and saints recognized universally by the Church.

The Catholic Church is the same, however even if we do not typically venerate a saint, they are still a saint for all Catholics. Not very many Christians venerate Enoch other than the Armenian Apostolic Church, however therefore because of the Armenian Catholic Church, all Catholics may venerate Enoch.

 

[kesa82]

Thank you, and yes, I apologize for my part in unfortunately leading this thread off track.

Carry on!

Uh, I played my own part in that too.

 

[Milliardo]

The Catholic Church is the same, however even if we do not typically venerate a saint, they are still a saint for all Catholics. Not very many Christians venerate Enoch other than the Armenian Apostolic Church, however therefore because of the Armenian Catholic Church, all Catholics may venerate Enoch.

Privately, a Greek Orthodox can venerate the Romanovs; that is his private devotion, so to speak. However, as far as those outside the Russian Orthodox Church is concerned, public veneration of the Romanovs is strictly confined to the Russian Orthodox Church (I hope I got this right; those who have been in Orthodoxy for a long time might want to help or correct this if I’m wrong).