Marvel comic book to avoid

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear AngryAtheist8,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well with you.

There is this very modern notion, frequently heard on these boards, that a man must read a book from cover to cover or watch a film in its entirety before he is entitled to give any critical analysis. Quite frankly this is absurd and just plainly wrong. Not invariably it is a line of argument used for the purposes of scoring cheap debaters points to discredit one’s protagonist. It supposedly undermines their credibility and conveys the impression to others that they are indolent and untrustworthy. However, if the truth be known, those who resort to this sort of unfair argumentation would never in a month of Sundays apply it to themselves in any number of other issues. It is, dear friend, a tactic employed soley for polemical purposes, namely to close someone down and silence an opposing viewpoint with which one strongly disagrees.

The vast majority of people would accept that reading trusted reviews of books/films and in-depth analysis of any work suffices for the purposes of general debate, unless one is preparing a professional review for a broadsheet newspaper or a television arts programme. Thus, for example, dear friend, I have never read the Davinci Code, but I have read articles/reviews that clearly demonstrate that it is arrant nonsense of the first-rank. Therefore, I have no need to squander my time reading such worthless fiction. This is surely even more the case with material containing immoral or unwholesome content where I am also at risk of befouling my soul in addition to wasting my time.

Finally, dear friend, it is not a question of regurgitating hearsay or of being “irresponsible”, but merely leaning on trusted and respected reviews/articles, written by others, in order to better understand a given literary work or film. This is quite sufficient and acceptable for the purposes of ordinary debate, such as the kind which take place here on CAF.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

So what?

Deciding that a book, movie, TV show, or other media isn’t worth your time without reading and/or watching them is very very different from **reviewing such material for others **without the benefit of actually watching (or reading) the media in question.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by Portrait
Dear AngryAtheist8,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well with you.

There is this very modern notion, frequently heard on these boards, that a man must read a book from cover to cover or watch a film in its entirety before he is entitled to give any critical analysis. Quite frankly this is absurd and just plainly wrong. Not invariably it is a line of argument used for the purposes of scoring cheap debaters points to discredit one’s protagonist. It supposedly undermines their credibility and conveys the impression to others that they are indolent and untrustworthy. However, if the truth be known, those who resort to this sort of unfair argumentation would never in a month of Sundays apply it to themselves in any number of other issues. It is, dear friend, a tactic employed soley for polemical purposes, namely to close someone down and silence an opposing viewpoint with which one strongly disagrees.

The vast majority of people would accept that reading trusted reviews of books/films and in-depth analysis of any work suffices for the purposes of general debate, unless one is preparing a professional review for a broadsheet newspaper or a television arts programme. Thus, for example, dear friend, I have never read the Davinci Code, but I have read articles/reviews that clearly demonstrate that it is arrant nonsense of the first-rank. Therefore, I have no need to squander my time reading such worthless fiction. This is surely even more the case with material containing immoral or unwholesome content where I am also at risk of befouling my soul in addition to wasting my time.

Finally, dear friend, it is not a question of regurgitating hearsay or of being “irresponsible”, but merely leaning on trusted and respected reviews/articles, written by others, in order to better understand a given literary work or film. This is quite sufficient and acceptable for the purposes of ordinary debate, such as the kind which take place here on CAF.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Dear Portrait,

Thank you for your well reasoned argument. The examples of what Catholics and men of good will should avoid are many. And yes, we all should look to reliable and credible sources regarding the contents of any type of media to know what is worthwhile and what to avoid. The emotional aspect is hard to avoid at certain times and the generalization, or rule, that one must see or read something does not apply in all cases. Is there any porn movie we should see before commenting on it? Of course not.

The comic book description I posted was from the highly reputable icv2.com web site:

"Humphries promises that the book will be “dark, dirty, morally sticky, edgy, bloody, and sexy.”

There is a strong opinion by some that our free will and our own judgment must be our guide. However, in too many cases, while Church teaching, or the letter of the law, is mentioned, I can’t help but wonder how the spirit of the law is followed. The ‘exception finders’ are anxious to say, in a few cases, that unless it’s carved in stone, then it doesn’t apply, and we are free to ignore, reinterpret or suit to ourselves, not just Church teaching but what the Bible tells us about fleeing immorality. I do not wish to claim that I have any particular authority or that I can judge anyone. My point is to always to describe what is obviously wrong.

One more observation. There seem to be a few people that get a positive emotional feeling about long debates. But what is the value of any debate based only on poorly informed or uninformed opinions? Of course, there are those seeking the truth, but, it is obvious that, at times, an excuse, a loophole, or new interpretation is sought that does not lead to the truth but a justification for doing wrong. God knows I’m a sinner, and I am tempted daily. But everyone here needs the truth, including those that lurk here looking for truth. Without truth, how can we properly live our faith? Or how can we have a truly functional society?

I encourage you to continue posting here.

Many thanks.

God bless,
Ed

In what way, manner, or form was his argument* well reasoned*?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You’re welcome. The media seems to be heading in a continuing downward spiral. Comic books have gay characters and even gay marriages. The argument from a few in the comic book industry (and I do know people at Marvel and DC) is that their comics should reflect what is happening in society. They seem to have forgotten or chosen to ignore the fact that children go through various stages of mental, emotional and social development for every year of their lives. And they should not be exposed to certain themes or ideas.

Marvel and DC have forgotten what the word hero means, as in, superhero. A superhero, by definition, has certain obvious qualities that are beyond the norm, and they are all good qualities. So a boy can read about his hero and admire the traits he has. Developing an active imagination is a good thing. Pretending to be Spider-Man or Superman is a good thing in play with other kids. It creates an imagination, an imagination that might lead a boy to become a comic book artist or writer later in life, so he can pass on the fun, the awe and wonder of being a superhero and fighting evil aliens or saving people from giant mutant insects, and traveling to the future or alien worlds.

But what happens when an established hero or group of heroes go Dark? I was shocked a few years back when I went to a local comic book store and saw a poster for Dark X-Men. How is that possible? Why?

As a boy reading comic books, I grew to love and admire the courage, honesty and desire to protect and serve people that were a part of the superheroes I grew up with. And while reading that comic book, I was drawn into their world, filled with incredible devices and beings. No matter how often the basic story of good fighting evil and good winning, was presented, I felt it, and it inspired me. It led me to good thoughts. To thoughts of doing good and to virtue.

Some companies have now decided that a hero can also also include those that beat the bad guy to a bloody pulp - graphically depicted. Or a “hero” is a guy that has killed fewer people in one issue than the bad guy.

Read what your kids read. Find out about that cool stuff your boy is talking about. Look into it and see if it contains messages you don’t approve of. Kids are like sponges and they are often prompted by others their age to check out this comic book or game or TV show. Find out where their heads are at today because the media has made a lot of changes over the years and they’ve mostly been bad ones.

Peace,
Ed

LOL

Oh Ed sometimes I feel as though you’re deliberately providing a parody of yourself.

Why?

Well off the top of my head…
To shake things up and grab the attention of fans.
To demonstrate character growth and/or evolution.
Because the X-Men are being impersonated by their enemies (which has already happened more than once in the comics).
etc. etc. etc.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear Portrait,

Thank you for those encouraging words. They are appreciated.

Here is Pope Benedict making his usual nuanced comments about culture and the spirit of our age. And what “truth” has become.

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-renounce-culture-that-disguises-falsehood-as-truth

Peace,
Ed

I wouldn’t be so happy to be endorsed by Portrait if I were you Ed.

Remember that he is an avid fan of Ron Conte’s work (i.e. Catholic Planet).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by (name removed by moderator)
Edwest said:-

You tell us Ed, it seems dubious to me to be offering opinions on media you have not watched or read.

Not at all. As Portrait has clearly addressed the point. No Catholic needs a big warning label about porn, but music CDs have them, games have them and movies have them. That’s why they’re there. All it has to say is “explicit lyrics” and it goes back on the shelf.

I saw The Kids are All Right. I’m sorry I did. I should read have the following from www.imdb.com:

“Rated R for strong sexual content, nudity, language and some teen drug and alcohol use.” I found it sickening.

Peace,
Ed

So what?

Were not talking about certain types of media (like porn) but specific works (such as the film Brave or the comic you mention in the OP).

Reviewing a film you haven’t watched or a comic that you haven’t read is like a food critic reviewing food that he has never eaten.

Extremely dubious at best

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by edwest2
Not at all. As Portrait has clearly addressed the point. No Catholic needs a big warning label about porn, but music CDs have them, games have them and movies have them. That’s why they’re there. All it has to say is “explicit lyrics” and it goes back on the shelf.

I saw The Kids are All Right. I’m sorry I did. I should read have the following from www.imdb.com:

“Rated R for strong sexual content, nudity, language and some teen drug and alcohol use.” I found it sickening.

Peace,
Ed

To be honest, this type of behavior makes it much harder for me to take Ed’s claims of being an authority on the media seriously.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

That is not true – sexual temptation, respect for others, political theory, pornography, violence, the structure of the family, etc. have all been explained in the CCC and other authoritative Church documents.

The Church has spoken unequivocally on a variety of moral issues ranging from the most grave to the very venial. Furthermore, the Church does not state that there are sins outside of those delineated in Church teaching or those to which our consciences draw our attention.

Indeed we do not, because the Church does not teach that viewing immorality in the media is unacceptable and unbecoming. The reason that She does not teach this is because it is not true, and the Church is a holy paragon of the Truth. Of course She does not teach falsehood, which is why a faithful Catholic would not find a condemnation of that sort in Church teaching.

“Salacious” is too narrow of a term for immoral actions being depicted in the media. Furthermore, those with good spiritual formation, earnestly pursuing holiness are indeed fully cognizant of the Church’s understanding of sin and the media, i.e. that pornography and pornographic violence are sinful but many other depictions of immoral activity are not sinful.

The Church is absolutist where such is appropriate, e.g. pornography. It is indeed a matter of absolutism.

I am not speaking only about sexual immorality in film. Unless you broaden the scope of your discussion, we cannot have one.

You err in believing that watching any immorality of any sort (not only sexual) in the media will induce others. Perhaps you suffer from a particularly weak spiritual constitution and are easily drawn into sin, but for many others, a strong faith formation and knowledge of the faith permit exposure to reality without corruption of the soul. I will pray that you become stronger in your faith.

Indeed not. And yet, the Church’s understanding of sin and morality is expressed in Her teachings. They are up-to-date.

I have examined it thoroughly. It agrees with me and disagrees with you, which makes sense because I have Church teaching on my side and you admit that you do not.

As I mentioned before, a good example of Portrait not having Church teaching on his side is things that he has said with regard to women’s rights and/or Catholic Planet. Click on the link to this old CAF thread if you want to know what I’m talking about:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=673423&highlight=Portrait&page=25

 

[jen_fla]

jeez, many folks are jumping on ed for just trying to give a heads up. i would never have heard about the video game called rapelay had not someone done the same. i let my parenting friends know so they could make sure their kids didn’t rent or buy. having a discussion is hardly advertising and isn’t that what we do here at caf is have discussions?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear (name removed by moderator),

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Quite correct, dear friend, ‘antagonist’ was the noun that I should have used. Thankyou for bringing that to my notice.

Whether the argument is based on insufficient knowledge would largely depend upon the quality of reviews or articles upon which it is based. This is why I spoke of reading trusted reviews and in-depth analysis. Of course we have to be jolly judicious as regards our source material and this I would not stop to deny.

If one is preparing an article/review for say a broadsheet newspaper or an arts programme on the BBC, then yes it is incumbent upon one to do one’s homework. However, dear friend, for the purposes of general discussion on an internet forum I do not think that most men would demand that sort of extensive research. Those who do churlishly demand it are invariably trying to discredit their opponent and, yes, make him appear unscholarly and lax.

Those who on a public forum insist upon an immense amount of research, and that a man watch an entire film, before he earns the right to comment upon it are, dear friend, being jolly unreasonable, if not uncharitable. That really admits of no doubt. After all, a public internet forum, such as CAF, is not the exclusive domain of scholarly film reviewers, but of all sorts and conditions of men. Surely these chaps should be able to contribute to the discussion, based upon their albeit limited study of sources, assuming those sources are trustworthy and sound?

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

I would not describe watching a film before reviewing it as extensive research.
It would be more reasonable to say that someone should at least do that.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

jeez, many folks are jumping on ed for just trying to give a heads up. i would never have heard about the video game called rapelay had not someone done the same. i let my parenting friends know so they could make sure their kids didn’t rent or buy. having a discussion is hardly advertising and isn’t that what we do here at caf is have discussions?

I agree. I’m still subscribed to this thread, and everytime I come back I can’t believe this is still going on.

Baelor: You realize your screen name is, in fact, “Baelor”? (I play DnD).

I understand leveling *some *criticisms, like (name removed by moderator) when he is surprised that Ed hasn’t actually read the comic, but I agree with Ed that it’s a good idea to at least alert folks (like me who hasn’t turned the page of comic since the late 70’s/early 80’s) about what’s coming down the pike. My son is six–I’ll take all the warnings/heads up I can get. I’ll investigate as well, because I’m staying on top of what comes near my son (and I’m getting the distinct feeling that I must keep him away from ALL comics based on the discussions I’ve read here ). But niether Ed nor Portrait have said anything to evoke such passionate disapproval. IMHO.

 

[Dale_M]

Here is some more information about the re-launch of Uncanny X-Force, the comic book which Edwest warned us about.

I am unfamiliar with the title, but the following information cleared up for me what it is all about.

Like all super heroes, Marvel Comics heroes stand tall against the forces of evil. What makes Marvel heroes so unique and inspiring is that in order to make a stand they must make difficult choices. Occasionally they make the wrong choice and have to deal with the consequences. This is something the heroes of writer Rick Remender’s “Uncanny X-Force” series know a lot about. As a covert villain assassination squad they literally make life and death decisions every time they enter the field and the consequences of those choices come back to haunt them in a big way.

This December Remender’s run on “Uncanny X-Force” ends with issue #35. What exactly will happen to the team members is unclear, but when the series ends there will still be dark corners of the Marvel Universe and a need for a group of heroes to enter those shadowy domains and make difficult choices about what needs to be done. Enter writer Sam Humphries and artist Ron Garney, who will expand the Marvel NOW! initiative this January with a new volume of “Uncanny X-Force” featuring a cast of new and familiar characters. CBR News spoke with Humphries about his plans for the series.

In terms of plot, tone, and feel, Humphries’ “Uncanny X-Force” stories will feel like action-espionage epics brought to life in the surreal, and ethereal style of a film maker like David Lynch. “My initial pitch to Marvel was ‘David Lynch does a ‘Mission Impossible’ or a James Bond film.’ That kind of vibe has really informed all the decisions we’ve made on the book since that point,” Humphries explained. “So ‘Uncanny X-Force’ is a mutant book that is not going to take place at any of the traditional locations for mutant books after ‘AvX.’ We’re not going to spend a lot of time at the Jean Grey School. We’re not going to be on Utopia. We’re not going to be hanging out at the diner in Westchester County. This is a book that’s going to go to some very remote and shady locations throughout the Marvel Universe.”

comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=41085

There is more details, plus one piece of concept art, at the link.

 

[jen_fla]

I agree. I’m still subscribed to this thread, and everytime I come back I can’t believe this is still going on.

Baelor: You realize your screen name is, in fact, “Baelor”? (I play DnD).

I understand leveling *some *criticisms, like (name removed by moderator) when he is surprised that Ed hasn’t actually read the comic, but I agree with Ed that it’s a good idea to at least alert folks (like me who hasn’t turned the page of comic since the late 70’s/early 80’s) about what’s coming down the pike. My son is six–I’ll take all the warnings/heads up I can get. I’ll investigate as well, because I’m staying on top of what comes near my son (and I’m getting the distinct feeling that I must keep him away from ALL comics based on the discussions I’ve read here ). But niether Ed nor Portrait have said anything to evoke such passionate disapproval. IMHO.

i know. i feel like ed is getting ganged up on for trying to help. in some cases it makes sense to examine the content for yourself before you condemn, but i didn’t need to play rapelay to know that game is evil. a quick google search is enough.

from wiki:

The game centers on a male character who stalks and rapes a mother and her two daughters. Three years after its initial release, the game garnered international attention and controversy for its content.

it is now banned in the us, england, argentina (i actually think it can’t be sold outside of japan) and it took people like ed who “advertised” this game, so people could make that happen.

 

[Baelor]

NtW:

but I agree with Ed that it’s a good idea to at least alert folks (like me who hasn’t turned the page of comic since the late 70’s/early 80’s) about what’s coming down the pike.

We do not know what is coming down the pike. Nor did edwest seek to investigate the comic book further, for example by asking whether anyone had more information. He also did not present his opinion as anything other than fact. Given that he has not read the comic, he cannot actually know what is in it. He did not even cite any plot content provided by other sources.

I am not saying that he is not well-intentioned, but rather that this entire thread should not exist, at least in the present form.

Espousing positions contrary to Catholic teaching should always provoke others to passionate disapproval.

 

[Dale_M]

i know. i feel like ed is getting ganged up on for trying to help. in some cases it makes sense to examine the content for yourself before you condemn, but i didn’t need to play rapelay to know that game is evil. a quick google search is enough.

Well, yes. A video game which centers on raping women and girls, and then abusing or murdering them, doesn’t need to be played for anyone to condemn it. But the content of that “game” is a far cry from what we are discussing.

 

[edwest2]

jeez, many folks are jumping on ed for just trying to give a heads up. i would never have heard about the video game called rapelay had not someone done the same. i let my parenting friends know so they could make sure their kids didn’t rent or buy. having a discussion is hardly advertising and isn’t that what we do here at caf is have discussions?

Thank you. That is my only intention.

Peace,
Ed