Mary - Amateur Catholic Apologist conversation needs help

[guanophore]

As far as praying to Mary. I never agreed with this as well because it elevates her to the status of deity.

This is an absurd idea! How can asking someone else to pray for you elevate the intercessor to the divine?!

If I asked you to pray for me, would you then suddenly become divine? Nonsense.

She would have to be omniscient and omnipresent (spelling??) in order to hear us. The same goes for praying to saints.

Not so. Attributing divine qualities to anyone but God is a violation of the first commandment. All of us are subject to the will of God, and if any communication happens, it only does so by the will of God. Phillip, after baptizing the eunuch, was caught up by the Spirit, and found himself about 200 miles away. Are you going to tell me that makes him omnipresent? Nonesense. God can do whatever He wants with His servants.

Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints.

Yes, positionallly at least. However, some of us are a little further along in the course of actual sanctification than others. I have a question for you. Who are the people in the “great cloud of witnesses” in Heb. 12:1?

Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church.

The church has a rigorous procedure by which it examines the life of person who are considered to have fulfilled God’s plan for their lives. Those who meet all the criteria are held forth as examples for us to follow, just as Paul held forth himself as an example, and those persons in the “great cloud”. By emulating them, we can become what God wants us to be. Do you really not have anyone in your life whose faith walk you admire?

That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ.

Remember that there is more to the Word of God than what is written in scripture. Also, Catholics agree about asking prayers of the saints. We just think it only gets better when a saint passes beyond the veil of flesh.

Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters??Maybe but we don’t know for sure.

Nonsense! Of course we know for sure! Mary and the saints (they are not fallen but have been perfected in faith, and have overcome the world), are CREATURES and can never become God. They have become partakers in the divine nature, by virtue of Jesus death on the cross.

If that’s true then how can we pray to anyone other the God in Jesus name.

Catholics only pray in the name of Jesus.

Maybe but we don’t know for sure.Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Peace and God Bless.

Seems like a little history of the Rosary might help you more than us!

 

[Apryl]

Hey!
I want to know exactly what Mary can do with our prayers that Jesus can’t. I mean seriously - why would you want to pray to Mary and not God? What makes you think that she can hear you at all?

One thing she can do with them that Christ can’t is she can give them to Christ!

Seriously, she doesn’t do anything more with them. And she does not in any way prevent any one from praying directly to God.

Imagine you want to go out for the evening. You want to ask your father, but your mother is a bit better at buttering him up. You ask your mother ‘would you talk to Dad for me, please?’ She does. Then, she says to you, ‘go and talk to your father’.

You still have to ask your father’s permission, and you did speak to your mother about it, but the permission was STILL granted by your father. You still have a father. You still speak to your father. Your request was still granted by your father.

Do you think, in this scenario, that talking to your mother removed your father from the equation?

1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

True. Very true.

I heard a Catholic say that Mary is the signpost to God. So can comeone please tell me, why pray to the signpost when you can pray to God himself?

Well, for starters, as a person that tries analogies all the time, I know that some analogies are not as good as others. Sometimes, they make sense to one audience, but no sense at all to others.

Sounds like you (and I) are in the audience for whom ‘signpost’ is not a good analogy!

Mary is the Mother of God. Period. We can talk to Mary, and we still talk to God.

Scripturally: the story of the wedding in Cana is a great example of us being told to pray to Mary (WHAT OTHER PURPOSE IS THERE FOR THIS STORY TO BE IN THE BIBLE?). In the situation to Jesus performing His first public miracle, Jesus was aware that there was a need (He is omniscient), but the Wine Steward spoke to His MOTHER. She, in turn, told Jesus of the need.

Notice what she did next: she did not tell Him, ‘Oh, but you HAVE to give them the wine’. No. She didn’t say ‘Make it good wine’ even. No. As a matter of fact, what is written in scripture, she didn’t say anything else to Jesus.

But, before Jesus performed this miracle, she spoke the last words attributed to her in scripture: DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU TO DO.

Hmmm…

So, we can pray TO Mary (as the Wine Steward of Cana did), but the miracle is still done by Jesus (as was done in Cana)… and we STILL gotta follow His direction?

(I feel a tangent coming on)

Why did the Wine Steward seek out Mary to ask about the wine? There were lots of other people there. I’m sure some wealthier. Some who may have had wine. We don’t know the relation of the bride OR the groom to Jesus, or Mary. Of all the people that Wine Steward COULD have asked for some more wine, he went to Mary, the Mother of our Lord.

She in turn didn’t even ASK Him about the wine. She didn’t ask Him to produce more wine. She didn’t ask Him to quiet the crowd, or to put salt on the food, or anything. She only let Him know of the request. The Wine Steward asked HER, and she put that request, made of her, into the hands of her Son.

And that, my good friend, was how the first recorded Miracle of our Lord came to be.

I’m getting goosey just thinking about it, but does this help you to see WHY you should to to Mary? Or, rather, why you COULD go to Mary?

I think that Signpost was a poor choice (because of how it was taken… I’m sure for some, it’s a perfect illustration)

I think that Mary, esp in the case of the Wedding at Cana, was not being a Sign post, but she was acting as the Queen Mother.

 

[Apryl]

Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints. Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church.

But honestly, are we all following Christ? or are we just aware that Christ died for our sins, is part of the Trinity, and loves us (despite what we do)?

That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters?? Maybe but we don’t know for sure.

You are incorrect. It is scriptural. I’m sure you are aware (even if you don’t realize it) because you pointed to the book of Revelations. Please read the entire thing!

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Yes, and no. You have some aspects correct. But you are wrong on many points.

The Rosary is not THE BEADS, it is the collection of prayers. Yes, a Rosary is beads, but THE Rosary is the prayers. (I seldom use the beads when I do my Rosary. I have ten fingers)

Many things in the world exist, and have, at some time, had some connection with a Pagan Act, but that doesn’t mean that our action is a descendant of that action. Many times, the Pagan action is a corruption of some blessed action. I do not know (or care, in this case) which came first. When the Rosary is offered, it is not offered for any Pagan, or nearly Pagan reason. It is for a divine reason. It is in memory of the life of Jesus Christ.

I realize that you have some objections to Catholicism, but please, make sure that what you are objecting to is actually what is going on, and please don’t repeat untruths about the Church of Jesus just because you may not understand the actual truth.

 

[inchrist101]

Jesus is the Way, And the Truth and the Life. Paul himself said that we are must be made intercessors.

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:1-5​

Take a look at the last phrase please. One mediator of God and Men, the man Jesus Christ. Understand the Bible before you quote it.​

Actually it isn’t. The early form of prayer beads recite the 150 Psalms by monks. The Eastern Rite Catholics as well as the Orthodox Christians have a bead that recite “Jesus, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”

The Rosary itself is a Gospel Prayer. Hail Mary, full of grace comes from Luke 1:28, Blessed are you amongst women comes from St. Elizabeth’s mouth when she greeted Mary. Mother of God, derives from Mother of My Lord also from Elizabeth’s own mouth.

The rosary isn’t paganistic. If you know history, you would know this. However, it is apparent, you don’t know​

*Please get a little educated Mannyfit75. See I do know my history. Seems you don’t even read what your own church writes.

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE ROSARY

‘Rosary’ is an ancient word meaning a garland (of roses or leaves etc.). Legend has it that the beads were originally made of Rosewood. Today, they may be made of glass or even stone. The Rosary was first implemented by the Roman Catholic Church in the year 1090 A.D., over 1,000 years after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church herself has acknowledged that the Rosary did not come into general use until the 13th century, and the practice was not officially sanctioned by the Roman Church until after the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

The exact time and place in regard to the origin of the rosary, or prayer beads, is difficult to trace. However, we do know that Buddhists and Muslims had been using a device for counting prayers similar to the rosary centuries before the Rosary was introduced to Roman Catholics.

According to unchallengeable historical fact, the rosary is a device which originated in **Paganism **and is commonly found throughout the many and varied religions of the world. Clearly, the concept of prayer beads or prayer counters had been in use for centuries, long before the Roman Catholic Church decided to continue this popular pagan tradition, furnishing it with a Christian veneer.

Roman Catholics cannot argue this point, for their own Church approved Catholic Encyclopedia states: "In almost all countries, then, we meet with something in the nature of prayer counters or rosary-beads."4 The same article cites a number of examples including a sculpture of ancient Nineveh, of two winged females praying before a sacred tree, each holding a rosary!*

 

[guanophore]

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Peace and God Bless.

Let’s try this line of reasoning with something else…
Regarding the crucifixion, take a look at history and you will find that crucifixion is nothing but a pagan method of execution. Dying on a cross is very paganistic and it’s how criminals were put to death. The pagans thought that if they crucified the rabble rousers, then society would be at peace. Think of how the cross is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by dying on the cross Jesus could triumph over sin? NO. Jesus lifted up by pagans and that means He is a Pagan, and this use of the cross is very paganistic.

How does that work?

 

[inchrist101]

Let’s try this line of reasoning with something else…
Regarding the crucifixion, take a look at history and you will find that crucifixion is nothing but a pagan method of execution. Dying on a cross is very paganistic and it’s how criminals were put to death. The pagans thought that if they crucified the rabble rousers, then society would be at peace. Think of how the cross is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by dying on the cross Jesus could triumph over sin? NO. Jesus lifted up by pagans and that means He is a Pagan, and this use of the cross is very paganistic.

How does that work?

The simple point you are missing is that the rosary has its origins with the pagans. Read my response to Manny75 and then read your own church doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:1-5​

Take a look at the last phrase please. One mediator of God and Men, the man Jesus Christ. Understand the Bible before you quote it.

Maybe you can help me understand it inchrist101. Can you explain why, if Paul knows that Jesus is the one mediator, he is asking for intercessory prayer? why doesn’t he just pray to Jesus himself? why involve others in such unnecessary behavior?

 

[guanophore]

The simple point you are missing is that the rosary has its origins with the pagans. Read my response to Manny75 and then read your own church doctrine.

I never argued that point. I know it was used in Pagan cultures first. the simple point you are missing is that the HS can take anything He wants, water, dirt, fire, beads, a cross, sinful human beings, etc and use it to glorify God.

Acts 19:11-12

11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Will you say that handkerchiefs and aprons were part of the everyday attire of Romans (pagans) that they should not be used by Paul or the HS ?

 

[Mimi]

This is an excellent place to try to open up their (your non-Catholic, Christian friends) eyes.

Mimi: Yes, indeed. IF they are here not with the purpose of pushing their own agenda. If one is here with the purpose to learn and clarify, they will be rewarded.

Many respondents have pointed to scriptural references to respect and devotion for Mary, and those are good points.

Personally, I tend to look at this as a point of common sense:

If I were to visit a friend, I would be respectful to their mother, just because she is their mother.

Mimi: Excellent point!/SIZE]

I hope that Jesus is with me at all times, and as I see Christ as God, the second person of the trinity, of course, I will honor his mother as He honored His mother Himself.

We have the Fourth Commandment of the 10 Commandments that tell us to honor our Father and our Mother. Mary was given to US as our Mother when Christ was on the Cross. One of his last ‘seven words’ was that act. She is our mother, so we should honor her.

Makes perfect sense to me. Why do others persist in not comprehending this? Jesus was the perfect Jew; He had to obey the 10 commandments. He did not come to abolish the Law. He loved her and she loved him - any parent who truly cares for their children can understand that. Meditate on it and you will love Mary as Jesus loved her, only we can’t even come close to the Agape-Love that He has for her. She was the perfect Mother and he was the perfect Son. Awesome!

There are those that say she is dead. But I believe in John 3:16, where we are promised everlasting life (and if we Believe in God, we will honor Him as Mary did - so I believe she has been rewarded with everlasting life)

Again, makes perfect sense to me! I think Scott Hahn explains this (and more) in his talk called A Biblical Understanding of Marysaintjoe.com/search-result.php

The Rosary itself is not a prayer to Mary - the Hail Mary prayer is. But the Rosary is a reflection on the life of Christ. Most of the times we see as milestones in His life, Mary was at His side.

(I have a tendency to back off from defending prayers TO Mary, but there is biblical references telling us to pray unceasingly, to pray to the saints, to have our prayers offered up by the Saints in heaven - we SHOULD pray TO (directly to) Mary)

I once heard it put in this beautiful way: Our prayers go to Mary, and she sifts them through her pure hands to make them a pure offering to God. She is our greatest Advocate. Why shouldn’t we get all the help that’s available?

Many people that are into Sola Scriptura will tell you of the things that are not in the Bible, I ask them: are cars in the Bible? How did you get here? Is television in the Bible? What did you watch last night?

Sola Scriptura (or, The Bible Alone), is NOT in the Bible!

The Rosary is a memory/meditation tool. It allows us to, as we pray to Mary, to reflect upon the life of Christ, and the meaning of each of those 20 (including the Luminous Mysteries) moments in His life.

Imagine a friend of mine was devoted to his mother, and he had to go away for a while. He was a good friend of mine, and I wanted to be a good friend to him. Then, I don’t even call his mother to check on her. I don’t acknowledge her on Mother’s day. I know she needs to get to a doctor, and I do nothing. What kind of friend would I be?

Then, we have Jesus, who died on the cross for MY sins, and I can’t even give His mothers the roses of a rosary?

Ask your ‘friend’, if he’ll treat Jesus that way, how will he treat you?

Again, excellent point!

Mimi
Cradle Catholic, revert, novice apologist, mom of 3, DW of a recent convert

 

[Mimi]

The simple point you are missing is that the rosary has its origins with the pagans. Read my response to Manny75 and then read your own church doctrine.

Wedding rings are of pagan origin? Are you married? If so, do wear a ring as a symbol of your fidelity to your wife?

Mimi

 

[guanophore]

Why do others persist in not comprehending this? Jesus was the perfect Jew; He had to obey the 10 commandments. He did not come to abolish the Law. He loved her and she loved him - any parent who truly cares for their children can understand that. Meditate on it and you will love Mary as Jesus loved her, only we can’t even come close to the Agape-Love that He has for her. She was the perfect Mother and he was the perfect Son. Awesome

Since coming to his forum, I have realized that people who have a problem with Mary probably did not have a good relationship with their own mothers. Motherwounds tend to transfer to other women in a person’s life. the other reason I think people balk at the marian doctrines is a lack of understanding of God’s plan for us. They think we “elevate” her, when in fact it was God that did that.

I once heard it put in this beautiful way: Our prayers go to Mary, and she sifts them through her pure hands to make them a pure offering to God. She is our greatest Advocate. Why shouldn't we get all the help that's available?

This is a good point. Not wanting the help describes a person who does not have an appreciation for how much help we need. In the last few days, I have read repeatedly. “Jesus only” “Jesus is all I need”. Why did He start a church, then?

Sola Scriptura (or, The Bible Alone), is NOT in the Bible!

 

[franksv]

Jesus is the Way, And the Truth and the Life. Paul himself said that we are must be made intercessors.

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:1-5​

Take a look at the last phrase please. One mediator of God and Men, the man Jesus Christ. Understand the Bible before you quote it.​

Take heed not to foster thy own judgment, for, without doubt, it will inebriate thee; as there is no difference between an intoxicated man and one full of his own opinion, and one is no more capable of reasoning than the other.

– St. Francis de Sales

I don’t try and understand Scripture as much as learn from it.

But we could go round and round with the version/interpretation you have chosen to believe and what Scripture is really teaching.

1 Tim 2:6-7

who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

It all goes back to Sola Scriptura or not. Your argument is dead in the water before you even speak/type, as it’s full of your own understanding.

Yes, Jesus is the way, the only way. We are to do & obey all He has commanded, not pick & choose what suits us, or our beliefs.

 

[mikeledes]

The simple point you are missing is that the rosary has its origins with the pagans. Read my response to Manny75 and then read your own church doctrine.

According to several scholars, the belief in the resurrection of the dead, hell, a Messiah/Savior, and “a new heaven and earth” are of pagan origin. They say it came from Zoroastrianism, a Persian religion, and that the Jews were exposed to this idea during the Babylonian Captivity. I, of course, disagree with that.

Here are some of the similarities listed in the following website:

sullivan-county.com/id2/zoroastrianism.htm

Resemblances Between Zoroastrianism and Judaism.

The points of resemblance between Zoroastrianism and Judaism, and hence also between the former and Christianity, are many and striking. Ahuramazda, the supreme lord of Iran, omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal, endowed with creative power, which he exercises especially through the medium of his Spenta Mainyu (“Holy Spirit”), and governing the universe through the instrumentality of angels and archangels, presents the nearest parallel to Yhwh that is found in antiquity. But Ormuzd’s power is hampered by his adversary, Ahriman, whose dominion, however, like Satan’s, shall be destroyed at the end of the world. Zoroastrianism and Judaism present a number of resemblances to each other in their general systems of angelology and demonology, points of similarity which have been especially emphasized by the Jewish rabbinical scholars Schorr and Kohut and the Christian theologian Stave.

There are striking parallels between the two faiths and Christianity in their eschatological teachings—the doctrines of a regenerate world, a perfect kingdom, the coming of a Messiah, the resurrection of the dead, and the life everlasting. Both Zoroastrianism and Judaism are revealed religions: in the one Ahuramazda imparts his revelation and pronounces his commandments to Zarathustra on “the Mountain of the Two Holy Communing Ones”; in the other Yhwh holds a similar communion with Moses on Sinai. The Magian laws of purification, moreover, more particularly those practised to remove pollution incurred through contact with dead or unclean matter, are given in the Avestan Vendïdad quite as elaborately as in the Levitical code, with which the Zoroastrian book has been compared…

The two religions agree in certain respects with regard to their cosmological ideas. The six days of Creation in Genesis find a parallel in the six periods of Creation described in the Zoroastrian scriptures. Mankind, according to each religion, is descended from a single couple, and Mashya (man) and Mashyana are the Iranian Adam (man) and Eve. In the Bible a deluge destroys all people except a single righteous individual and his family; in the Avesta a winter depopulates the earth except in the Vara (“enclosure”) of the blessed Yima. In each case the earth is peopled anew with the best two of every kind, and is afterward divided into three realms. The three sons of Yima’s successor Thraetaona, named Erij (Avesta, “Airya”), Selm (Avesta, “Sairima”), and Tur (Avesta, “Tura”), are the inheritors in the Persian account; Shem, Ham, and Japheth, in the Semiticstory. Likenesses in minor matters, in certain details of ceremony and ritual, ideas of uncleanness, and the like, are to be noted, as well as parallels between Zoroaster and Moses as sacred lawgivers; and many of these resemblances are treated in the works referred to at the end of this article.

Here is another link on this subject:

pyracantha.com/zjc3.html

Moreover, Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the Trinity is of pagan origin and they give “evidence” to support their case.

Using “beads” as an aid in prayer is not pagan. What makes it pagan is when it is used in pagan worship. As someone pointed out, wedding bands are of pagan origin. BTW, the dollar bill that you use to buy food and other necessities necessities is full of pagan imagery. And stay away from any building inspired by classical Greek/Roman archtecture because that’s of pagan origin as well.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[CharlesRizzo]

I’m a non-denom as well. Well former Catholic I should say. I’ve been baptized by full water immersion and have never experienced the gift of tongues. But let’s take a look at what the firey tongues are because I do not like that protestants throw this in the faces of Catholics or any Christian group that doesn’t understand it.

The gift of firey tongues is not a special language that God speaks. The gift was giving the ability to the Apostles to speak in the native tongues of those at Pentecost because it was very typical for Jews to travel from all parts of the world to Jerusalem for Pentecost. They spoke Greek, Italian, some form of Asian language, probably German and who knows what else. The Apostles were given the ability to speak in their language so they could understand what Peter was saying when he gave his wonderful sermon. Read the beginnning sections of Acts to see this explained. I simply do not know what this speaking in tongues is supposed to be. There’s alot of arguing about it amongst the religious groups but if you hear it it sounds like mumbo jumbo to me and it certainly does not make any sense. Tell your friend to show you in the Bible where it states that the gift of firey tongues is it’s own language. It isn’t. It’s the ability to speak in foreign languages.

As far as praying to Mary. I never agreed with this as well because it elevates her to the status of deity. She would have to be omniscient and omnipresent (spelling??) in order to hear us. The same goes for praying to saints. Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints. Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church. That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters?? Maybe but we don’t know for sure. We do know how Jesus taught us to pray in the Bible which is the Our Father and he also told us to pray directly to God in his name. Remember what Jesus tells us in John:

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If that’s true then how can we pray to anyone other the God in Jesus name.

Regarding the Rosary, take a look at church history and you will find that the Rosary is nothing but prayer beads. Prayer beads are very paganistic and it’s how they used to pray to their gods. The pagans thought that if they kept repeating their prayers over and over and over again that the gods would listen to them. Think of how the rosary is used. The exact same way. Do you really think that by praying the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over again will force God to listen to you more? NO. It’s not the quantity of your prayer it’s the quality. The rosary is definitely not scriptural and if anything it’s very paganistic.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[CharlesRizzo]

"As far as praying to Mary. I never agreed with this as well because it elevates her to the status of deity. She would have to be omniscient and omnipresent (spelling??) in order to hear us. The same goes for praying to saints. Remember in the Bible Paul tells us that we all are saints. Anyone who follows Jesus is considered a Saint and does not need to be pronounced as such by any church. That is not scriptural at all. In revelations when they refer to the prayers of the saints, they are actually referring to our prayers, not just the prayers of St. Peter and Paul etc., but every follower of Christ. Is Mary a diety now as well as all of our fallen Christian brothers and sisters?? Maybe but we don’t know for sure. We do know how Jesus taught us to pray in the Bible which is the Our Father and he also told us to pray directly to God in his name. Remember what Jesus tells us in John:

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If that’s true then how can we pray to anyone other the God in Jesus name"

Let’s get clear: Mary is a creature, not the creator; however, she is the greatest creature ever created by God, except for Eve, when she sinned. Yes, we are all saints. In th Catholic sense, she is a Saint with a capital S. That means she is a hero. She said “yes” to God and she bore Jesus Christ. “You will know them by their fruits”. Jesus is the fruit of Mary’s faith and womb.How does she hear our prayer? We all have Guardian Angels (Messengers). Humans created this internet? If we can do it, why can’t God employ a “Divine Internet”? We ask people to pray for us. Does that mean they are dieties? No, they’re mediators.Saying that everone is a Saint is like saying everyone who can run is an Olympic Athlete (GOLD MEDAL).Everyone who has made it to Heaven has won the race. So they are all Saints.The Rosary is thouroughly Scriptural and Christo-centric. The Prayers of the Rosary are all scriptural. Check it out. We begin it by making the Sign of the Cross "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Ame. (I believe) Find me something in the creed that’s not Biblical. The Our Father is the prayer of Jesus. The Haily Mary is “3/4%” Biblical. Hail Mary, full of grace (God’s words), the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women (God’s words again) and blessed is the fruit of your womb, JESUS (IN THE CENTER), PRAY FOR US SINNERS (we don’t ask Jesus to pray for us) NOW AND AT THE OUR OF OUR DEATH. AMEN. Isn’t that what she did for her Son, when she was at the foot of the Cross? Is she “Dead”? No, Christ said that everyone who believes in Him will never die (physically no; spiritually, yes). Mary is the first creature to accept Jesus as "her personal Lord and Savior "(Read Luke 1). Also, read Pope JPII’s Letter on the Rosary: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

The Word [Jesus] bacame flesh." Who’s " flesh? Mary’s.
We are members of the Body of Christ; He is our Brother; therefore, she is our Mother (Jn 19:27). “Honour your father and your mother” Do you think that Jesus would break His own commandment? If Jesus honours her, why don’t we? “All generations will call her blessed” That prophecy has been fulfilled for over 2000 years everytime we pray the Hail Mary (53x in the Rosary). Multiply that by all theCatholic all over the world. Wow! How did she know that? The first time it was said was by God’s Messenger, Gabriel and then by Elizabeth. "THE MOTHER OF MY LORD (GOD). In Jesus through Mary, Charles
www.truedevotiontomary.net

 

[Mannyfit75]

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE ROSARY

‘Rosary’ is an ancient word meaning a garland (of roses or leaves etc.). Legend has it that the beads were originally made of Rosewood. Today, they may be made of glass or even stone. The Rosary was first implemented by the Roman Catholic Church in the year 1090 A.D., over 1,000 years after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church herself has acknowledged that the Rosary did not come into general use until the 13th century, and the practice was not officially sanctioned by the Roman Church until after the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

The exact time and place in regard to the origin of the rosary, or prayer beads, is difficult to trace. However, we do know that Buddhists and Muslims had been using a device for counting prayers similar to the rosary centuries before the Rosary was introduced to Roman Catholics.

According to unchallengeable historical fact, the rosary is a device which originated in **Paganism **and is commonly found throughout the many and varied religions of the world. Clearly, the concept of prayer beads or prayer counters had been in use for centuries, long before the Roman Catholic Church decided to continue this popular pagan tradition, furnishing it with a Christian veneer.

Roman Catholics cannot argue this point, for their own Church approved Catholic Encyclopedia states: "In almost all countries, then, we meet with something in the nature of prayer counters or rosary-beads."4 The same article cites a number of examples including a sculpture of ancient Nineveh, of two winged females praying before a sacred tree, each holding a rosary!

Cite your source my friend. Because I doubt the reliability of your sources. Apparently, you have ignored the use of beads. I have told you if you read what I wrote carefully that in the Eastern Rite (Catholic Byzantine Rite use the Jesus prayer bead instead of the Rosary. The information you noted doesn’t fit this citation from wikipedia.

History

The rosary probably began as a practice by the laity to imitate the monastic Divine Office (Breviary or Liturgy of the Hours), during the course of which the monks daily prayed the 150 Psalms. The laity, many of whom could not read, substituted 50, or even 150, Ave Marias (Hail Marys) for the Psalms. This prayer, at least the first half of it so directly biblically, seems to date from as early as the 2nd century, as ancient graffiti at Christian sites has suggested. Sometimes a cord with knots on it was used to keep an accurate count of the Aves.

The Rosary came to replace the popular devotional practice that consisted of reciting the 150 Psalms of the Bible in thirds or 50 at a time. Instead of the Psalms, 150 Our Fathers were recited. Over the course of the middle ages, the Lord’s Prayer was replaced with the Angelic Salutation, commonly called the Hail Mary. The prayers of the Rosary were set by the late 16th century. From the 16th to the early 20th century, there were no changes in the Rosary until the mid-20th century when the addition of the Fatima Prayer became popular. There were no other changes until 2002 when John Paul II proposed five new Luminous Mysteries as an option.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary

Your information was errors on the rosary.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Key dates of the Rosary:

The following table are key dates in the development of the rosary.

4th century prayer rope used by the Desert Fathers to count repetitions of the Jesus Prayer
c. 1075 Lady Godiva refers in her will to “the circlet of precious stones which she had threaded on a cord in order that by fingering them one after another she might count her prayers exactly” (Malmesbury, “Gesta Pont.”, Rolls Series 311) [1]
Early to mid 12th century repetition of the Hail Mary prayer (in groups of 50) comes into use as a devotion[1]
1160 St Rosalia is buried with a string of prayer beads[1]
1214 traditional date of the legend of St Dominic’s reception of the rosary from the Virgin
Mid-13th century word “Rosary” first used (by Thomas of Champitre, in De apibus, ii. 13),[2] not referring to prayer beads but in a Marian context
1268 Reference to guild of “paternosterers” in Paris in “Livre des métiers” of Stephen Boyleau.[1]
Early 15th century a Carthusian, Dominic of Prussia, introduces the meditations (mysteries)[3]
c. 1514 Hail Mary prayer attains its current form.[4]
1569 Pope Pius V established the current form of the original 15 mysteries[5]
1597 first recorded use of term “rosary” to refer to prayer beads.[6]
1917 Our Lady of Fatima is said to ask that the Fatima Prayer be added to the Rosary.
2002 Pope John Paul II introduces the Luminous Mysteries as an option for Catholics[7]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary

inchrist101,

Your claim the rosary is pagan is not even cited fro historial proof text. Wikipedia isn’t a Catholic site but it doesn’t show any bias when it comes to history. Before you make a claim that the rosary devotion is pagan, you better check on where you get the information.

Another more reliable Catholic source on the rosary is Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org

This link provides the history of the Rosary.

newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm

One more thing to note, the rosary is only a devotion said in the Latin Rite or Roman Rite. It is not prayed in the Byzantine Catholic Rite which prays the Jesus prayer instead of the rosary.

 

[CharlesRizzo]

Hello,

For the sake of argument, let’s accept that similar beads were used by pagan religions.

So what?

It’s only a counting device.

What counts is the content of the Rosary–the Rosary is the most Scriptural and most Christo-centric Prayer that exists:

The complete Rosary consists of four parts covering the Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

For example, let’s take the first of the four MEDITATIONS of the Rosary: the Conception of Jesus Christ to when He was age 12:

“THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES” (all taken from the start of the Gospel of St. Luke):

This is what we pray …

1. Holding the Crucifix we make The Sign of the Cross, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
2. one Our Father,
3. three Hail Mary’s for the virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity,

4.Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit …,

STEPS 5-9 ARE CALLED MYSTERIES/DECADES (BECAUSE THERE ARE TEN HAIL MARY’S)

5.1st Mystery : The Annunciation (i.e., The Archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that she has been chosen to conceive the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus (God) and she accepts “Let it be done to me according to your word.”

1. one Our Father,
2. 10 Hail Mary’s,
3. one Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit …
4. “Fatima Prayer”: O my Jesus, forgive us our sins …
5. 2nd Mystery, The Visitation of Mary to her cousin, St. Elizabeth,
   Steps 6-9
6. 3rd Mystery, The Birth of Jesus Christ,
   Steps 6-9
7. 4th Mystery,
   The Presentation of the Baby Jesus in the Temple,
   Steps 6-9
8. 5th Mystery, The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple.
   Steps 6-9
9. THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES
   The Life of Jesus from age 30 to 33
   Steps 1-13
10. THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES
    The Agony in the Garden after the Last Supper to His arrest and crucifixion and death
    Steps 1-13
11. THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES
    The Resurrection of Jesus to the Crowning of Mary, the Queen of Heaven and Earth, all the Angels and Saints (See Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12–The Woman (See John 19:27, John 2:1-12) shall crush Satan’s head. She, being the first to receive Jesus Christ (“AS HER PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR” IS ALSO THE FIRST ONE TO RECEIVE THE MERITS WON BY JESUS CHRIST)
    Steps 1-13

Finally, we say the prayer, “Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria …”

Concluding Prayer: Let us pray …

Once, we have gone all the way around the Beads, we are back the Crucifix, where Jesus hangs between Heaven and Earth, the Center of Our Faith. Amen. Thus, you can see just how Scriptural and Christo-centric the Rosary is. Finally, the roots of the beads might be pagan, but the prayer is not. Remember, how the Israelites used the Gold and Jewelry to build the Temple of Jerusalem.

Thank you,
Charles
www.TrueDevotiontoMary.Net

 

[Zooey]

%between%

inchrist101:

The simple point that you are missing is that the rosary had its origin with the pagans.

And you, :tsktsk: :tsktsk: my friend, are missing the simple point that crucifixion had its origin with the pagans. Do you suggest that we:bigyikes: reject Christ, for being crucified???:crying: :crying: God forbid!!!

 

[Church_Militant]

Please get a little educated Mannyfit75. See I do know my history. Seems you don’t even read what your own church writes.

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE ROSARY…

‘Rosary’ is an ancient word meaning a garland (of roses or leaves etc.). Legend has it that the beads were originally made of Rosewood. Today, they may be made of glass or even stone. The Rosary was first implemented by the Roman Catholic Church in the year 1090 A.D., over 1,000 years after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church herself has acknowledged that the Rosary did not come into general use until the 13th century, and the practice was not officially sanctioned by the Roman Church until after the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century…

When it comes to getting “a little educated”, I’d say you are the one who needs to.

For those who don’t recognize the source that IC101 has quoted here (without citation of source BTW!) let me show you where he got that c&p job. It can be found here. But most informative is the sources that this article cites.

NOTES

1. Babylon Mystery Religion: Ancient and Modern, R.E. Woodrow, p.22, 1966, Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic
   Association, Inc.
2. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.7, p.111, article: ‘Hail Mary’.
3. Roman Catholicism, L. Boettner, p.284-285, 1962, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company.
4. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.13, p.185, article: ‘Rosary’.
5. Babylon Mystery Religion, op.cit., p.21-22.
6. The Two Babylons, Rev. A. Hislop, 1916, p.188, S.W. Partridge & Co.
7. Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, W.E. Vine, M.F. Unger,
   W. White, Jr., 1985, p.525, Thomas Nelson Publishers.
8. The Two Babylons, op.cit., p.285.
9. Babylon Mystery Religion, op.cit., p.22.
10. Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, A. Barnes, 1962, p.283, Kregel.
11. Roman Catholicism, op.cit., p.285.
12. Babylon Mystery Religion, op.cit., p.140.
13. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.3, p.246, article: ‘Candles’.
14. Ibid, Vol.11, p.90, article: ‘Paganism’.
15. The Catholic Bible Has The Answer, op.cit., p.16.What the author of that (very anti-Catholic) article does not tell everyone is very interesting indeed. I knew I’d heard of Hislop before, so I went looking. I already knew the score on the anti-Catholic fiction writer Lorraine Boettner. Here’s an article written by Ralph Woodrow, one of the authors whose work is quoted in the article IC101 used.

As for Hislop:

A certain strand of anti-Catholicism likes to claim that the Catholic faith is essentially a kind of repackaged paganism that supplanted biblical Christianity. In its most absurd form, it claims that Catholicism is the same as the religion of ancient Babylon, which is alleged to be the wellspring from which all paganism came.

That’s the thesis of the book The Two Babylons by an eccentric, nineteenth-century Anglican, Alexander Hislop, whose work has been widely quoted and plagiarized by other anti-Catholics. Hislop’s book seems to have been written partly in answer to the conversion of John Henry Newman and the publication of Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, in which he considered the subject of alleged pagan influences on early Christianity.

Unfortunately, Hislop seems to have known almost nothing about actual pagan religions. His book contains a wild mish-mash of truths, half-truths, and falsehoods. Sometimes individual charges from the book get thrown up in the face of Catholics, who are at a loss to answer them. Often the best way to respond is to look at the text where the charge is made, find the errors in it (even if it means looking in a textbook on mythology), and then use these to demonstrate the unreliability of the source making the paganism charge.

TRACKING THE FIRST PAGANS
Pagan Influence Fallacy