Mary and birth pains

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exoflare said:
I think someone explained to you in another thread, but just in case… it’s because the effects of original sin on earth still remain. The difference is that our culpability for original sin is wiped clean. Only after the final judgement of the earth will ALL effects of sin be eliminated, for those who God judges favorably.
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Yes, thank you.
 
Kendy said:
My catholic scripture school teacher said that Mary probably did experience birth pains. She said she does not deny the immaculate conception, but if Jesus could be sinless and still work and die (consequences of the fall), Mary can experience birth pains. This seems to make sense to me but I am wondering what does the church teach?

Kendy
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Kendy I am not sure that we can know this definitively because as far as I know there ids no writing on it. But my own understanding is that b irth pains for the woman are the result of her sin. " To the woman He said:
I will multiply your birth pains in childbearing. You shall give borth to your children in pain"
Because of Mary’s being born freed from the effects of Original sin, and therefore the curse which came with it, I would have thought that the birthing pains did not apply to her. We need to remember, I think, that Miriam of Nazareth, had to be on the same level playing field as the original Eve, in order for her to be able to defeat/crush the head of satan. Because Eve was also born free from sin, it was in this state that Miriam would have needed to be and also I imagine because to be the new Holy of Holies, the new Ark of the Covenant, there could not be sin, or the curses which sin brought.
Anyway I have thought about this myself and after reading and praying I came to this conclusion.
God Bless
Grace Angel.
 
copland said:
As far as Rev. 12:2, Oecumenius, one of the Early Church Fathers, explains it the best, showing that Mary did not experience birth pains, but that the passage uses figurative speech to indicate that she was sorrowful due to being pregnant until she understood by the word of the angel that she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit.
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Copeland I understood that passage you referred to “she cried out in her birth pangs” not to refer to the Blesed Virgin Mary but the birth of the Church. In pain is the church born. Through the death of Jesus and the flow of blood and water He gives birth (in pain) to the church.
I must admit I have never thought of the quote that you mentioned as referring to Mary. In fact I dont think I can see her in that at all.
Shalom Aleichem.
GraceAngel.
 
Grace_Angel said:
Copeland I understood that passage you referred to “she cried out in her birth pangs” not to refer to the Blesed Virgin Mary but the birth of the Church. In pain is the church born. Through the death of Jesus and the flow of blood and water He gives birth (in pain) to the church.
I must admit I have never thought of the quote that you mentioned as referring to Mary. In fact I dont think I can see her in that at all.
Shalom Aleichem.
GraceAngel.
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Why not?

Mary is the Queen of Heaven (12:1), the child she gave birth to that rules with a rod of iron is Jesus (12:5). After the child (Jesus) is caught up to heaven, the dragon wages war on all her children. Just as Jesus gave the unnamed disciple to Mary as her son, all Christians are taught that they are children of God. Who is the mother of God, Jesus? Mary.
 
I pray the Little Office of the BVM and there is a hymn from the first century that says she gave birth without pain. Here’s part of it:

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (*Odes of Solomon *19 [A.D. 80]).
 
NotWorthy said:
Why not?

Mary is the Queen of Heaven (12:1), the child she gave birth to that rules with a rod of iron is Jesus (12:5). After the child (Jesus) is caught up to heaven, the dragon wages war on all her children. Just as Jesus gave the unnamed disciple to Mary as her son, all Christians are taught that they are children of God. Who is the mother of God, Jesus? Mary.
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OK, but I still think it is the Church which is being described.
But then again is not the Church in the image of Mary, and Mary in the Image of the Church? Isnt Mary “my sistr my bride” (Song of Songs) as is the Church the Bride of Christ?
Shalom Aleichem.
 
The image in the Apocolypse is not Mary literally giving birth to Jesus–but the suffering involved in the Church/Mary bringing salvation to the world–by bearing Christ to the world. Mary, in her life with Jesus, suffered much–her heart was pierced by a sword as she offered her Son on the Cross for the salvation of the world. Her motherhood of Him and bearing Him for the world brought her great suffering (just not during the actual literal birth). Likewise, the Church suffers through persecution as she bears Christ to the world by preaching the Gospel.
 
Grace_Angel said:
OK, but I still think it is the Church which is being described.
But then again is not the Church in the image of Mary, and Mary in the Image of the Church? Isnt Mary “my sistr my bride” (Song of Songs) as is the Church the Bride of Christ?
Shalom Aleichem.
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Now you’re getting it. The Church teaches that the woman in Revelation points to Mary, the Church, and (I believe) Israel.
 
NotWorthy said:
Now you’re getting it. The Church teaches that the woman in Revelation points to Mary, the Church, and (I believe) Israel.
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See notworthy if we stick to it long enough we eventually get there.
Happy weekend.
Shalom Aleichem.
 
Genesis315 said:
I pray the Little Office of the BVM and there is a hymn from the first century that says she gave birth without pain. Here’s part of it:

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (*Odes of Solomon *19 [A.D. 80]).
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According to Wikipedia, the majority of scholars place the Odes of Solomon at around the early 4th century CE (as opposed to the Psalms of Solomon which are placed end of first century CE.
 
NotWorthy said:
Amen!!!

BTW, “Aleichem” means what? You’re not talking about my mother are you??? 😉
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How did you know? darn it I thought I got away with it :o :o
“Shalom”= peace. Aleichem, I think “Life” :bowdown2:
Have a beautiful Sunday.
Grace Angel.:angel1:
 
water said:
sources:
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
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Gen. 3:16
Actually it says: … intensify your pangs in childbearing in pain you shall bring forth children… NAB

…greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception: in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children … KJV

… greatly multiply your pain in childbearing: in pain you shall bring forth children RSC-CE

… logically speaking there probably had to be some pain in birthing for it(pain) to be increased, no? I don’t know… logic doens’t always apply, God is God… we weren’t there so we won’t know for sure … Bless the Mother’s heart she had enough pain watching our Lord die for us, at least she got to see that He arose from the dead and that we have that hope.

We have to trust that Jesus is very capable of keeping the church safe.

just my 2 cents

Sher;) 😉
 
SherryLynn9 said:
Gen. 3:16
Actually it says: … intensify your pangs in childbearing in pain you shall bring forth children… NAB

…greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception: in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children … KJV

… greatly multiply your pain in childbearing: in pain you shall bring forth children RSC-CE

… logically speaking there probably had to be some pain in birthing for it(pain) to be increased, no? I don’t know… logic doens’t always apply, God is God… we weren’t there so we won’t know for sure … Bless the Mother’s heart she had enough pain watching our Lord die for us, at least she got to see that He arose from the dead and that we have that hope.

We have to trust that Jesus is very capable of keeping the church safe.

just my 2 cents

Sher;) 😉
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Sher your 2 cents ❤️ worth are gold.:twocents: :angel1:
Grace Angel
 
All translation is commentary. I believe a more accurate translation of the Hebrew would be “I will make your distress very great… in pain you will bear children.” Not “increase your pain.” There does not seem to be an implication that childbirth before the curse was painful. This makes sense, given that childbirth had not occurred before. Before this curse there is no mention of pain at all in the creation story. There’s no reason to assume that it was a factor in the lives of Adam and Eve before or that, prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it was going to be a factor in their lives.
 
Take a look at this excerpt from the Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed03.htm
The Virgin Mother we may also compare to Eve, making the second Eve, that is, Mary, correspond to the first, as we have already shown that the second Adam, that is, Christ, corresponds to the first Adam. By believing the serpent, Eve brought malediction and death on mankind, and Mary, by believing the Angel, became the instrument of The divine goodness in bringing life and benediction to the human race. From Eve we are born children of wrath; from Mary we have received Jesus Christ, and through Him are regenerated children of grace. To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.
 
Kendy said:
My catholic scripture school teacher said that Mary probably did experience birth pains. She said she does not deny the immaculate conception, but if Jesus could be sinless and still work and die (consequences of the fall), Mary can experience birth pains. This seems to make sense to me but I am wondering what does the church teach?

Kendy
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Virginity During the Birth of Jesus

Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De Fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.)

The dogma merely asserts the fact of the continuance of Mary’s physical virginity without determining more closely how this is to be physiologically explained. In general, the Fathers and the Schoolmen conceived it as non-injury to the hymen, and accordingly taught that Mary gave birth in miraculous fashion without opening of the womb and injury to her hymen, and accordingly, and consequently also without pains. Source: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr. Ludwig Ott

Merry CHRISTmas All
 
I am of the opinion that she did not feel pain in Child birth. I believe this because the union between mother and Child is a type of one flesh union. Mary was the new Eve and Jesus the New Adam. The first Adam and Eve shared a one flesh union as husband and wife while the New Adam and new Eve shared a similar one flesh union as mother and Son. The union between Mary and Jesus images a marriage union more closely than an ordinary mother and child because in the case of Jesus and Mary there is a total giving of each to the other.

Just as there is no pain in the Union Shared in the Trinity and there is no pain when we follow in Mary’s footsteps and union with Christ in the Eucharist, I do not believe there was pain involved in the union of the Blessed Mother and her Divine Son.
 
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