Mary and birth pangs

[WesleyF]

A protestant made the following comment.

*if the women in revelations 12 is Mary, and as the cathlics believe she is sinless, why is she experiencing the birth pangs ? Birth pangs was a curse upon the women as a result of original sin, since she is sinless she should be having a painless delivery. *

Please tell me how Catholics should respond.

 

[Tom]

A protestant made the following comment.

*if the women in revelations 12 is Mary, and as the cathlics believe she is sinless, why is she experiencing the birth pangs ? Birth pangs was a curse upon the women as a result of original sin, since she is sinless she should be having a painless delivery. *

Please tell me how Catholics should respond.

First, birth pangs are not a result of original sin. Scripture says the pains will increase, implying pains were natural. You can’t increase something that doesn’t, or wouldn’t, exist.
Second, Mary is the mother of ALL who call her Son our brother. She is the mother of ALL Christians. It is you and I who cause her pain.

 

[WesleyF]

Excellent!

I’m gonna show it to him right away!

 

[Tom]

A protestant made the following comment.
*if the women in revelations 12 is Mary, and as the cathlics believe she is sinless, why is she experiencing the birth pangs ? Birth pangs was a curse upon the women as a result of original sin, since she is sinless she should be having a painless delivery. *
Please tell me how Catholics should respond.

www.drbo.org:

Gn 3: 16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

He will multiply, not create. If you multiply a number by zero, the product is zero.
www.drbo.org:

Rev 12: 17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Do ya think we cause her pain? LOL
I reposted to give you references.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

If Mary was exempt from the birth pangs visited upon Eve’s descendants, it seems at least as reasonable that Jesus would be exempt from living “by the sweat of his brow,” a bomb that was dropped on Adam at the same time as the whole birth-pangs business was on Eve. Yet our Lord made His daily living as a carpenter, which leads one to believe that both Christ and the Virgin underwent these limitations visited upon humanity in Genesis.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Isaiah 66:7-8 a woman in pain gives birth to the messianic people. Just as this prophecy is two-fold (she gives birth to a son, and to sons) the woman in Revelations 12 gives birth to the messiah (verse 5) and a multitude of children (v. 17).

Birth imagery is used to describe the resurrection: (1 cor. 15:20, 36; Col. 1:18; Acts 13:33; John 12:24, 16, 16:20-21; Rev 1:5).

Birth pang imagery equals Christ’s sufferings at cavalry: shown in John 16:20-21, and Acts 2:24.

Word describing woman “in anguish” (basanizomene) in Rev 12:2 is never used in Old or NT to describe actual physical birth pains, it refers to torment/sorrow in general. So it may refer to something other than normal physical birth pains. (birth pains are his death, his birth and ascension refer to his resurrection.) If Rev. 12:5 is the metaphorical birth of Christ’s death/resurrection, it is another clear link between Rev. 12 and John 19. So passion/resurrection=sorrow/joy of birth process in rev 12.

The gospel John depicts Mary becoming the mother of the beloved disciple in ways that evoke Lady Zion giving birth to the messianic people. (John 16:20-21; Is. 27:17-18; Is. 66:7-14).

Isaiah 66:7-10 shows Zion’s labor pains, bringing forth children and rejoicing. Is. 26:17-21 Sorrow, then joy with the imagery of the dead rising. This solidifies the link between John 19 and Revelations 12.

God Bless

 

[toaslan]

Nathan, you’re right.

The Church has traditionally interpretated this passage in Rev. to apply to Mary giving birth to the Church. She is crowned with 12 stars which represent the totality of all those called to be the Chosen People–the 12 tribes of Israel representing ALL of Israel representing ALL of the Church.

She brings forth the Church in pain as prophesied–a “sword of sorrow shall pierce your heart”; as she stood participating in her Son’s passion from the foot of His cross; as she received from Him then the motherhood of the Church when He gave John to her to be her son, and her to John to be his mother–meaning to be the mother of the whole church.

Mary’s role was to mother Jesus. In mothering Him she mothered His body. In mothering His body, she mothered the Church which is His body. So she gave/gives birth to that Church in giving birth to Him–but the birth of the Church is painful to her in that it requires His passion and death caused by our sins.