Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

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=brb3;10262968]Ok.
…some more ideas, from PMJ …the OP, on Mediatrix Role.
Let me quote the Dictionary author…MEDIATRIX: “it is ONLY PROBABLE, as a legitimate OPINION that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans w/o her intercessary co-operation.”
So, its just OPINION, not Dogma !!
NOT really:)
From OUR Catholic Catechism as binding as Is the Ccode of Canon Law

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

FROM FR. HARDON’S. CATHOLIC DICTIONARY

MEDIATRIX. A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.

On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. Yet Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross. Mary gave him moral support in this action. She is therefore not entitled to the name “priest,” as several Roman documents legislate. As explained by the Council of Florence in 1441, Christ “conquered the enemy of the human race alone” (Denzinger, 1347). In the same way he alone acquired the grace of redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. Her part in the objective redemption, therefore, was indirect and remote, and derived from her voluntary devotion to the service of Christ. Under the Cross she suffered and sacrificed with him, but subordinate to him in such a way that all the efficacy of her oblation depended on that of her Son.

On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ’s redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God’s special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition.

AND FRON CANON LAW:

749 §2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church

Continued Blessings my friend,

Pat/PJM
 
What is the real difference from honor and worship? What are some concrete examples of each?
 
This is how I understand it.

The consecration of the mass is an example of worshipping (our Blessed Lord), while the words in the Hail Mary is an example of honoring (our Holy Mother).

In one case we are recognizing that our Blessed Lord is absolutely perfect and that He is the source of all life, truth and love in the universe and that He has absolute supremecy over His creation. In the second case, however, we are recognizing that our Holy Mother is the greatest of all human beings and we ask for her to intercede for us to the One True God with whom she has a special relationship.
 
What is the real difference from honor and worship? What are some concrete examples of each?
Worship: eating the body or drinking the blood of an object with the intent of “latria”.

Honor: Complete respect or reverence without eating the body or drinking the blood of the object…

Wow I guess this original thread was combined with another thread just as I posted…

Peace!!!
 
NOT really:)
From OUR Catholic Catechism as binding as Is the Ccode of Canon Law

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

FROM FR. HARDON’S. CATHOLIC DICTIONARY

MEDIATRIX. A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.

On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. Yet Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross. Mary gave him moral support in this action. She is therefore not entitled to the name “priest,” as several Roman documents legislate. As explained by the Council of Florence in 1441, Christ “conquered the enemy of the human race alone” (Denzinger, 1347). In the same way he alone acquired the grace of redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. Her part in the objective redemption, therefore, was indirect and remote, and derived from her voluntary devotion to the service of Christ. Under the Cross she suffered and sacrificed with him, but subordinate to him in such a way that all the efficacy of her oblation depended on that of her Son.

On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ’s redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God’s special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition.

AND FRON CANON LAW:

749 §2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church

Continued Blessings my friend,

Pat/PJM
Yes, some may invoke Mary using those 4 names, ( Advocate, Helper, Benefactress & Mediatrix) …but, its OPTIONAL, per Hardin, and Pope Benedict thinks Mediatrix is confusing and not in favor of it.

Also, the word ADVOCATE is used in scripture to refer to HS …so, that title is out too.
So, we are left with Helper & Benefactress …as acceptable titles.
 
…“invoked as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress & Mediatrix”

So it reads but, Pope Benedict doesn’t care for Mediatrix ( says its problematic ), and Sacred Scripture uses ADVOCATE in regards to name of Holy Spirit !

So those two are not Kosher/proper … regarding Our Lady. We are left with Helper & Benefactress …both which seem very good descriptor terminology for Our Mother’s role in Salvation Theology.

Any others ?
 
=scree;10263626]What is the real difference from honor and worship? What are some concrete examples of each?
Honor = respecting, perhaps loving, holding is higg esteem

Worship =is the highest form of adoration and praise given to and rightly belonging to God Himself.

So the difference lies in

The degree

The obeject of:thumbsup:
 
…“invoked as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress & Mediatrix”

So it reads but, Pope Benedict doesn’t care for Mediatrix ( says its problematic ), and Sacred Scripture uses ADVOCATE in regards to name of Holy Spirit !

So those two are not Kosher/proper … regarding Our Lady. We are left with Helper & Benefactress …both which seem very good descriptor terminology for Our Mother’s role in Salvation Theology.

Any others ?
Advocate can also be used for any defense attorney, so I don’t find that problematic.

As for Pope Benedict finding Mediatrix problematic, do you have a link to the document?
 
…“invoked as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress & Mediatrix”

So it reads but, Pope Benedict doesn’t care for Mediatrix ( says its problematic ), and Sacred Scripture uses ADVOCATE in regards to name of Holy Spirit !

So those two are not Kosher/proper … regarding Our Lady. We are left with Helper & Benefactress …both which seem very good descriptor terminology for Our Mother’s role in Salvation Theology.

Any others ?
No, they are proper names. Your partial quote without citation comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism uses the term Mediatrix and Advocate. .

CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

The Holy Father’s comments are directed toward highly trained theologians. They are not comments which were intended to be understood by the laity apart from the rest of what he has said, apart from the rest of the teachings of the Church, nor apart from many, many years of in depth theological study on the part of the theologians to which the comments are directed.

Pope Benedict XVI does this quite often. He has a tendency to say things which are meant for highly trained theologians but does not make that clear and the laity misunderstands. This has caused problems in the past.

There are many ancient prayers of the Church and writings of doctors and saints which involk Mary under these titles. Your undersanding of what the Holy Father teaches about those names is not correct.

-Tim-
 
Advocate can also be used for any defense attorney, so I don’t find that problematic.

As for Pope Benedict finding Mediatrix problematic, do you have a link to the document?
Benedict’s comments have been posted # of times here on CAF by others,… will try to pull up those threads and citations.
Now, regarding ADVOCATE title …does Mary defend us before the Father, as does the HS ? …or does she convey GOD’ s grace to us ?
 
No, they are proper names. Your partial quote without citation comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism uses the term Mediatrix and Advocate. .

CCC 969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

The Holy Father’s comments are directed toward highly trained theologians. They are not comments which were intended to be understood by the laity apart from the rest of what he has said, apart from the rest of the teachings of the Church, nor apart from many, many years of in depth theological study on the part of the theologians to which the comments are directed.

Pope Benedict XVI does this quite often. He has a tendency to say things which are meant for highly trained theologians but does not make that clear and the laity misunderstands. This has caused problems in the past.

There are many ancient prayers of the Church and writings of doctors and saints which involk Mary under these titles. Your undersanding of what the Holy Father teaches about those names is not correct.

-Tim-
But Tim,

Look at the 969 statement, Mary doesn’t defend us before God, as does the HS, who truly ADVOCATES for us !

Giving Mary that role & title is just Wrong !!
 
But Tim,

Look at the 969 statement, Mary doesn’t defend us before God, as does the HS, who truly ADVOCATES for us !

Giving Mary that role & title is just Wrong !!
Mary does advocate for us. Consider the Wedding Feast at Cana. She advocated for the young newlyweds when they ran out of wine…and Jesus, although His time had not yet come, allowed Mary to “intercede”, as it were, for this couple…and He granted Mary’s request. Similarly, she can intercede on our behalf as well, as an advocate, such as when we ask her to pray for us…just as when we ask others to pray for us.
 
Lets be reminded that the 1996 Mariologic Congress in Poland UNANIMOUSLY agreed to NOT DECLARE a 5th Marian Dogma …(.regarding Mary’s role as Advocate or Mediatrix) !!!
 
Mary does advocate for us. Consider the Wedding Feast at Cana. She advocated for the young newlyweds when they ran out of wine…and Jesus, although His time had not yet come, allowed Mary to “intercede”, as it were, for this couple…and He granted Mary’s request. Similarly, she can intercede on our behalf as well, as an advocate, such as when we ask her to pray for us…just as when we ask others to pray for us.
Hoping Jesus would perform a miracle here on ON EARTH, to announce his Ministry…yes !!

But, saying that implies that she thusly assumes the ADVOCATE ROLE of Holy Spirit …is a stretch, a very BIG stretch for us to make…and one the Vatican HASN’T DONE !!
 
Lets be reminded that the 1996 Mariologic Congress in Poland UNANIMOUSLY agreed to NOT DECLARE a 5th Marian Dogma …(.regarding Mary’s role as Advocate or Mediatrix) !!!
The 5th Marian Dogma is Co-Redemptorix, not Mediatrix.
 
Hoping Jesus would perform a miracle here on ON EARTH, to announce his Ministry…yes !!

But, saying that implies that she thusly assumes the ADVOCATE ROLE of Holy Spirit …is a stretch, a very BIG stretch for us to make…and one the Vatican HASN’T DONE !!
You misunderstand the term Mediatrix. You should read “Mary in the Middle Ages” by Luigi Gambero.
 
“Then let us rejoice and be glad in Mary, for she is the faithful advocate of us all in heaven. Her Son is the Mediator between God and man; she is the Mediatrix between her Son and man. And, as befits the Mother of Mercy, she is most merciful. And she knows how to have compassion on human weakness, because she knows of what we are made. For this reason, she never ceases to intercede for us with her Son.” Paul the Deacon (d. ca. 799) - Homilia 45, In Assumptione, PL 95, 1496B; TMPM 3:755
 
But Tim,

Look at the 969 statement, Mary doesn’t defend us before God, as does the HS, who truly ADVOCATES for us !

Giving Mary that role & title is just Wrong !!
Your seemingly limitless capacity for and willingness to bash, tear down, diminish and outright deny Our Lady, the Queen of Heaven and Earth is what is wrong.

It is best that I say no more.

-Tim-
 
“When I sinned against the Son, I distressed the Mother; nor could I have offended the Mother without injuring the Son.” Anselm of Canterbury (d. 1109) Oratio 51, PL 158, 951B; Schmitt, 3:16.
 
Benedict’s comments have been posted # of times here on CAF by others,… will try to pull up those threads and citations.
Now, regarding ADVOCATE title …does Mary defend us before the Father, as does the HS ? …or does she convey GOD’ s grace to us ?
She intercedes. An intercessor is also an advocate. She prays for God to bestow grace on us (neither she nor the Holy Spirit defends our sins) for us to merit salvation.

I only used the defense attorney example to show that Advocate is not wrong, since we easily call others advocates as well. To advocate is not limited to defending, it includes speaking out in support of something, and this Mary does par excellence.

Yesterday’s Gospel is a keen example. In so little words, she advocated for the bride and groom.
 
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