Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

[PJM]

=porthos11;10266472]Further, it’s the OP who is wrong because of the claim that she assumes the Advocate role of the Holy Spirit. The Church has clarified that this is NOT the case and her Advocate-ness and Mediatrix-ness are truly distinct from the roles assumed by the Godhead.

Unfortunately, the OP, with his assumptions has not had the humility to understand first what the Church teaches before attacking, and is therefore the one who is Wrong, not the Church.

PLEASE NOTE:

This is a merged String and I’m NOT the OP holding these views:thumbsup:

Thanks, pat/PJM

 

[AmosTown]

For some reason, he has only a very old missal and will not put it down.

This is pretty confusing to me now. Am I reading something that is not Catholic. That can’t be true because my grandfather was Catholic and left all his Catholic books to me. He’s the one connection that I had to the Catholic church.

Are you saying something he believed in was wrong or that the Catholic church has new teachings?

The main reason I think I am even looking at this is because I can hear his voice asking me to become a Catholic. When he used to take me in his garden and we’d garden together he always had his rosary beads in one hand. I was young but I remember that.

He left me his books and you want me to put them down?

It says Catholic Daily Missal on one of the books.

 

[brb3]

Now I am really confused. The reason I started thinking about Catholicism is because I knew I was baptized Catholic and after grandpa past it seemed like I should think a little more about my family roots.

He left all his holy books to me and I feel the need to look into them. I thought he must now be a saint and Catholics pray to saints so maybe Christians are supposed to pray to saints.

But now all these answers here are confusing me worse. The latest responses I’m reading here kind of say that the books I’m reading are wrong?

Are they wrong? I don’t get it ? How am I supposed to understand Catholics if I am getting different answers from different people and Catholic books.

Is this quote a misprint to something? Its printed in the Catholic mass book. Are there different Catholic churches?

“The Holy Mass [The Divine Liturgy] is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him, in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

– His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X

I see nothing wrong with Pope Pius’ statement on Mass. It is both a personal & public communal prayer to the Lord by his Church. We are all in this Earthly Journey together. We come to Mass to be healed, strengthened, inspired, and forgiven. W/O weekly receipt of the Eucharist, living the Christian life is very problematic.

 

[AmosTown]

The prayers in it are still correct, although it seems like his trigger point is the “praying to Saints”

It says “Catholic”, but if all he has is a 1962 missal, how can that be?

I can hear you. I mean, I can read these threads you know. Is there some reason your ‘talking behind my back’ or something. This is really weird and starting to make me think you are some kind of cult with hidden secrets about beliefs.

If it weren’t for my grandfather, I wouldn’t be looking into Catholic church at all. I wrote somewhere I was baptised Catholic. I’m looking into the Catholic church because my grandpa left me his holy things when he passed.

I think I was better off just reading on my own until I came here and can;'t even get a simple answer to a simple question.

 

[AmosTown]

I see nothing wrong with Pope Pius’ statement on Mass. It is both a personal & public communal prayer to the Lord by his Church. We are all in this Earthly Journey together. We come to Mass to be healed, strengthened, inspired, and forgiven. W/O weekly receipt of the Eucharist, living the Christian life is very problematic.

Then it is correct to say that Catholics are supposed to pray the mass along with the priest just like the popes say they are suppose to do?

Do Catholics have to go to Mass to be a Catholic?

 

[brb3]

He CAN"T; its in the Catechism:

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

Then, tell us what the conclusions were from that Joint Conclave, March 26, 2010 on Mariology & 5th Dogma status !!

When I do search for it …nothing is found. Its being keep in Vatican, under top secret wraps ??

 

[KP3243]

This is pretty confusing to me now. Am I reading something that is not Catholic. That can’t be true because my grandfather was Catholic and left all his Catholic books to me. He’s the one connection that I had to the Catholic church.

Are you saying something he believed in was wrong or that the Catholic church has new teachings?

The main reason I think I am even looking at this is because I can hear his voice asking me to become a Catholic. When he used to take me in his garden and we’d garden together he always had his rosary beads in one hand. I was young but I remember that.

He left me his books and you want me to put them down?

It says Catholic Daily Missal on one of the books.

Sometimes the Church who has the right to change the liturgy will do so if part of it is causing confusion. For instance since the 1600s, the Church has deleted “thine be the Glory…” after we say the “Hour Father” at Mass because it was showing up in Bibles as part of the Hour Father and it isn’t. Thine be the Glory was part of the Catholic Mass not the Our Father. It is just now making an extraordinarily slow come back. Objections to Mary are fairly recent within the past 60 or 70 years. John Calvin and Martin Luther would have professed her perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. My guess is that the missal wording in your grandfather’s Missal was causing confusion for Catholics so the Church eliminated it.

 

[brb3]

Then it is correct to say that Catholics are supposed to pray the mass along with the priest just like the popes say they are suppose to do?

Do Catholics have to go to Mass to be a Catholic?

Absolutely !! But, some parts are for Priest, some for us …but, still we can/should try to learn/know words priest is saying & recite them in our hearts !! Thats reason why we now have Mass in English, so we can follow fully, fully informed & cognizant of what is transpiring … to the best we can, knowing some is a mystery, we can’t fully know specifics of.

We are there to WORSHIP the Lord …as scripture teaches, “in spirit and truth”…

 

[AmosTown]

Absolutely !! But, some parts are for Priest, some for us …but, still we can/should try to learn/know words priest is saying & recite them in our hearts !! Thats reason why we now have Mass in English, so we can follow fully, fully informed & cognizant of what is transpiring … to the best we can, knowing some is a mystery, we can’t fully know specifics of.

We are there to WORSHIP the Lord …as scripture teaches, “in spirit and truth”…

Then that to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints because you must pray with the priest the prayers of the mass.

 

[brb3]

Yes, at least weekly, on the Lord’s Day …just as first century Christians did !!

Only those with health problems are excused from attendance !! Its a mortal sin to miss w/o valid need to.

 

[AmosTown]

Yes, at least weekly, on the Lord’s Day …just as first century Christians did !!

Only those with health problems are excused from attendance !! Its a mortal sin to miss w/o valid need to.

Then to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints. Correct? This has to be true because the Mass parts contain prayers to Mary and the saints.

 

[brb3]

Then that to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints because you must pray with the priest the prayers of the mass.

Absolutely, …do you believe sacred scripture ? It CLEARLY teaches that the saints are actively engaged with us from heaven !! Christ spoke to this, John did, Paul did !!!

 

[pablope]

Then that to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints because you must pray with the priest the prayers of the mass.

Amos…please bear with us. You are confusing private devotions, like novenas, the rosary, private prayers to saints, which are optional…we catholics do not have to pray these.

The prayers in the Mass are part of the mass and we pray these as a community.

When we pray, when you pray…do you just pray for yourself? What is the Christian thing to do…pray for others or not to pray for others?

From James 1:

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Hope this clears your confusion a bit. So, what is it you need clarified? The intercessory prayers in the missal you received from your grandfather?

 

[AmosTown]

Yes, at least weekly, on the Lord’s Day …just as first century Christians did !!

Only those with health problems are excused from attendance !! Its a mortal sin to miss w/o valid need to.

Ok I get it now. Thank you for finally answering in plain talk . I needed to understand the difference between Catholics and Christians because Christians don’t pray to Mary and the saints.

To be a Catholic you have to offer prayers to Mary and the saints. One person on my questions even said they go to a Catholic church without Mary and saints in them and that seemed strange.

My grandfathers church has statues of Mary and the saints and so did his house and even his barn.

 

[Sarcelle]

Tantum ergo,

What is semi-godlike?

The Virgin Mary (human) is called more glorious than the seraphim of Isaiah 6:2 (angel) and More honorable than the cherubim of Hebrews 9:5, Psalm 79/80:2 by tradition.

Well, she is also called Queen of the Angels.

 

[AmosTown]

Amos…please bear with us. You are confusing private devotions, like novenas, the rosary, private prayers to saints, which are optional…we catholics do not have to pray these.

The prayers in the Mass are part of the mass and we pray these as a community.

Hope this clears your confusion a bit. So, what is it you need clarified? The intercessory prayers in the missal you received from your grandfather?

Where did I say anything about private prayers? Sorry to say but I think you may be the one confused.

I asked if its mandatory for Catholics to pray to Mary to be a Catholic. Some one said you never have to do that to be a Catholic. My grandfather always prayed to Mary because he had beads in his hands.

 

[pablope]

Ok I get it now. Thank you for finally answering in plain talk . I needed to understand the difference between Catholics and Christians because Christians don’t pray to Mary and the saints.

Catholics are Christians too, in fact, the first Christians.

To be a Catholic you have to offer prayers to Mary and the saints. One person on my questions even said they go to a Catholic church without Mary and saints in them and that seemed strange.

 

[pablope]

Where did I say anything about private prayers? Sorry to say but I think you may be the one confused.

I asked if its mandatory for Catholics to pray to Mary to be a Catholic. Some one said you never have to do that to be a Catholic. My grandfather always prayed to Mary because he had beads in his hands.

No, you did not say private prayers…by your questions and posts, those who responded where assuming you were asking about private prayers and devotions…which is typically asked here, so the responses you get where about private prayers…which added to your confusion.

On the Rosary, if you want to learn more about it…it is like reading the Bible.

 

[AmosTown]

Sometimes the Church who has the right to change the liturgy will do so if part of it is causing confusion. For instance since the 1600s, the Church has deleted “thine be the Glory…” after we say the “Hour Father” at Mass because it was showing up in Bibles as part of the Hour Father and it isn’t. Thine be the Glory was part of the Catholic Mass not the Our Father. It is just now making an extraordinarily slow come back. Objections to Mary are fairly recent within the past 60 or 70 years. John Calvin and Martin Luther would have professed her perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. My guess is that the missal wording in your grandfather’s Missal was causing confusion for Catholics so the Church eliminated it.

Now I’m even more confused. Do I have books with old teachings that are no longer valid?

Catholics changed wordings about prayers to saints and Mary in the mass missal? Sorry I haven’t been to Catholic church accept for my grandfathers mass and I wasn’t really paying attention to what was going on in the service itself.

This is making my head spin. Do Catholics have to pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic or not? One says yes, another says no, another says yes another says no.

Is there some kind of hidden cult teachings or something because its starting to look like that is what is going on here. I’ve been told Catholics have hidden teachings they don’t tell everyone and because I’m getting the run around here I am starting to believe it

 

[AmosTown]

No, you did not say private prayers…by your questions and posts, those who responded where assuming you were asking about private prayers and devotions…which is typically asked here, so the responses you get where about private prayers…which added to your confusion.

On the Rosary, if you want to learn more about it…it is like reading the Bible.

I’m still not getting a direct answer from anybody on the question I asked. I asked if its required for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to be a Catholic.

Not a single person but one I think will directly answer yes or no. This makes me suspect that what I’ve been told at my bible study that Catholics have hidden cult teachings that they don’t teach openly.

It would be better if I just got some plain direct answers. My grandfather prayed to Mary and saints and had them in his house and even his barn.

I just want a yes or no please. In order to be Catholic is it true you have to pray to Mary and the saints?