Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

[AmosTown]

The direct answer is no. No one is compelled to pray to Mary or the saints nor does the ordinary lay Catholic need to do anything except fulfill his baptismal vows.

So now that you’ve received your direct answer, may one ask why you want to know this?

Therefore I don’t have to pray the mass in common with the priest and other members of the congregation and I can omit anything from the mass that the priest or people believes. I thought the mass is a prayer in common?

I suppose this person is wrong? Because I asked that to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints because you must pray with the priest the prayers of the mass.

Yes, at least weekly, on the Lord’s Day …just as first century Christians did !!

Only those with health problems are excused from attendance !! Its a mortal sin to miss w/o valid need to.

 

[PJM]

=AmosTown;10268267]So if I don’t have to accept Mary or say hail Mary prayers to be a Catholic then is it also true that I don’t need to accept the saints?

BE VERY CAREFUL HERE.

ALL CATHOLICS MUST ABSOLUTELY ACCEPT THE CHURCHES TEACHINHS ON MARY THAT ARE DEFINED DOCTRINES AND DOGMA.

What is optional is praying to and THROUGH Her or the Saints.

From the current Code of canon Law
THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI

Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truth reverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach the gospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it.

§2. It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.

Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively

God Bless you and grant you all the grce you need to fully and rightly understand.

 

[ProdigalSun]

So Catholics don’t have to pray the mass prayers in common with the priest and every other Catholic in the church.

But I asked to others on this forum that to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints because you must pray with the priest the prayers of the mass. And I got this answer.

??? this is about attending Mass not about praying to Saints or am I missing something???

 

[AmosTown]

Well the most straight forward and uncomplicated answer is No! You don’t have to pray to Mary or any other Saint or to any person for that matter in order to be Catholic in good standing.

I do suggest you stay and open your heart and mind to the truth of the Catholic Church. Maybe your next question can be -" What is the Catholic understanding of pray with relation to Mary and the whole communion of Saints."

I hope this helps…!

No It makes it worse. Your answer is opposite what I’ve read up on about the mass and with what others say on this Catholic Answers forum.

I asked that if to be a Catholic you must pray to Mary and the saints because you must pray with the priest the prayers of the mass. I was answered this:

Yes, at least weekly, on the Lord’s Day …just as first century Christians did !!

Only those with health problems are excused from attendance !! Its a mortal sin to miss w/o valid need to.

I thought that the mass is a common as in a community prayer common to all people in the church and that you pray it as one.

I didn’t know it is not prayed as one. One of the things that seemed right about Catholics is that they are one prayer in common.

But now I see that is not the case.

 

[AmosTown]

??? this is about attending Mass not about praying to Saints or am I missing something???

The mass has a lot of prayers to saints and Mary. Am I wrong or missing something?

 

[Jeanne_S]

BE VERY CAREFUL HERE.

ALL CATHOLICS MUST ABSOLUTELY ACCEPT THE CHURCHES TEACHINHS ON MARY THAT ARE DEFINED DOCTRINES AND DOGMA.

What is optional is praying to and THROUGH Her or the Saints.

:

Thank you! This is what I was trying to say,however not with any success!

 

[Della]

The mass has a lot of prayers to saints and Mary. Am I wrong or missing something?

And why not? But are they the focus of the Mass? No, they aren’t.

 

[Nita]

The mass has a lot of prayers to saints and Mary. Am I wrong or missing something?

You’re wrong.
I suggest you read thru all the prayers of the Mass. If you find a prayer addressed to Mary, or the saints, would you please quote it for us – and reference where it occurs.

There are no prayers TO Mary or the saints that I’m aware of.
Altho their names may be mentioned, please note that the prayer is addressed to God.

Possible exceptions would be what is referred to as the “Entrance Antiphon” for 2 of the Marian Holy Days of Obligation. These are short accolades that honor Mary.
August 15, Feast of the Assumption: “All honor to you, Mary! Today you were raised above the choirs of angels to lasting glory with Christ.”

December 8, Feast of the Immaculate Conception: “All honor to you, Mary! From you arose the sun of justice, Christ our God.”

 

[AmosTown]

BE VERY CAREFUL HERE.

ALL CATHOLICS MUST ABSOLUTELY ACCEPT THE CHURCHES TEACHINHS ON MARY THAT ARE DEFINED DOCTRINES AND DOGMA.

What is optional is praying to and THROUGH Her or the Saints.

From the current Code of canon Law
THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI

Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truth reverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach the gospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it.

§2. It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.

Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively

God Bless you and grant you all the grce you need to fully and rightly understand.

I’m getting opposite answers from CAtholic Answers. Everything I read says as a Catholic you pray the mass together in common with the people in church and the priest. In masses there are a lot of prayers to Mary and the saints.

But people have answered me on this forum that you never ever need to pray to Mary and the saints. Yet at the same time you must go to mass which includes prayers to Mary and the saints.

If I have to go to Mass to be Catholic and pray the mass prayers in common with the priest and the church, then I have to pray to the saints and Mary.

But if I don’t have to pray to saints and Mary, do I just blank out those parts during mass if I become a Catholic?

I thought the Catholic mass is one common prayer among believers and all the prayers in it are prayed as one.

 

[Michael_Francis]

***So many threads have been opened on various minor aspects of Marian belief and practice that I am now merging most of them here.

This thread now contains about 6 different related discussions.***

 

[PJM]

=JM3;10268493]Now i’m confused. How on earth did you come up with that line of reasoning?

CORRECT but; that is NOT saying you do not have to absoutely accept ALL of the Marian Doctrines and Dogma’s. TWO SEPERATE issues

If one chooses NOT to take advantage of Mary as Intercessor; that is their choice and their loss. But in doing so One MUST still hold to the Marian Doctrine nd Dogmas.

 

[ahs]

Then I can become Catholic if I believe in private that I don’t have to pray the prayers to Mary and the saints in the Mass?

What do you mean by “become Catholic”?.

Are there any Catholic masses that take those parts out since they are not required?

I don’t know. Does it matter if there are none that take those parts out?

If I go to a church where they pray prayers to Mary and the saints in church, can I secretly reject those parts that I don’t believe in and still be a Catholic?

What would you reject? That Mary and the Saints intercede for us? Intercession is Biblical, so to reject this fact is to reject Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Do you believe Christian have the right to reject Scripture and Sacred Tradition?

I didn’t know that Catholics were allowed to pick which parts they agree with and still be Catholic. That’s something like my bible study. We have some differences among us but we kind of agree to disagree.

There are certain things that Catholics cannot “pick” (you can find the Doctrines that require assent in various sources, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church)…but still this has nothing to do with whether they are Catholic.

I was thinking that the Catholics were strict in their beliefs because my grandfather was pretty strict about religion. All this is new to me.

Yes, Catholics have some strict Doctrines that are not to be rejected (like the Triune God, the Real Presence of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine in the Eucharist, Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, etc…). I see a new thread topic or two coming soon…

Are you asking if you have to use intercessory prayer to become Catholic? If you are then the answer is no. Form A. of the Penitential Act we ask Mary and all of the angels and saints to pray for us to the Lord our God. Other than this you could never once ask Mary or Saint or Angel to pray for you. Remember Catholics are completely different Protestants. Catholics offer God a sacrifice of the mass, we would never EVER do that for Mary, Protestants offer no sacrifice and worship is something completely different.

Here is the current outline of the mass

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/

The Catholic Church doesn’t hide anything our theology is right out there for the whole world to read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We don’t hide anything, that is an extraordinarily uncharitable comment to make.

 

[AmosTown]

Catholics, like any other humans, do not “have” to do anything. A Catholic is a Catholic because they have been properly baptised. They will always be Catholic, even if they never practice it.

Everything else we do, not do, say, or not say determines whether we are in good standing with God. Our essential purpose of being human is to become holy. Communal prayer and private prayer are some of the means to achieve holiness.

Mary and the Saints are those who should be role models for us in achieving holiness. They have, each in their own unique ways, grew in holiness in this life. As they are members of the Communion of saints, we believe we can ask them to pray for us as if they were still alive on this earth.

I read that the mass is a prayer said in common as one. What you are saying is that I can become a Catholic but not actually pray together as one common prayer to God in mass. That I can be a Catholic but in private not pray together with other Catholics in mass.

If that is true, how is that “One” prayer offered to God.

The One Prayer to God in common seems to be at the root of Catholic church and you are saying its really not that at all?

 

[AmosTown]

What do you mean by “become Catholic”?.

I mean accept the Catholic church like the praying to saints, Mary, and the mass.

 

[brb3]

I just wanted a straight answer. Your answer doesn’t make it easier to understand. That’s because you said you must go to mass to be a Catholic and in mass you must pray the mass in order to take part in it. In these masses there are prayers to Mary and the saints so you have to pray those prayers.

If you don’t pray those prayers then you are living a lie and picking and choosing what parts of mass you will pray together with other Catholics.

Since you have to go to mass, and pray the mass, then you have to pray to the saints or your not being true to yourself or true to what prayers are being said by the priest or the people together.

I don’t think you are trying to say go to mass and pray only the parts you believe in after becoming a Catholic. Don’t you become a Catholic because you agree to the Catholic mass and all the people praying it together as a community?

Amos Town…

U are not being reasonable ! When the first century Gentles were baptized and joined the Christian community …THEY IMMEDIATELY WERE attending the temple & partaking of the Eucharist. They came into the Church FULLY GRACED, but not fully informed, just like your situation. You need several years of instruction, to clear the error from your cerebral cortex.
We are all a work in progress. God has us all on the POTTER’S WHEEL, we are constantly learning and clearing out the old, and bringing in the new !
I’m 3 years a new Catholic, converted Protestant, and just now coming to understandings on full Church teaching on Mary. Don’t fret about what you don’t understand, but, do what Christians have always done …JOIN THE VISIBLE GROUP OF CHRISTIANS, accept what you can now, and ask the Lord to reveal new truths to you, as you are able to receive.

 

[AmosTown]

CORRECT but; that is NOT saying you do not have to absoutely accept ALL of the Marian Doctrines and Dogma’s. TWO SEPERATE issues

If one chooses NOT to take advantage of Mary as Intercessor; that is their choice and their loss. But in doing so One MUST still hold to the Marian Doctrine nd Dogmas.

You don’t have to pray the mass together as one common prayer? Everything I’ve read is that the mass is a sacrifice prayer said by the priest and the people as One prayer in common offered to God.

People and the priest in the mass don’t have to be of one body and mind when praying the mass?

 

[KP3243]

??? this is about attending Mass not about praying to Saints or am I missing something???

I believe he or she has an old Roman Missal that we obviously do not use anymore because I really can’t think of any time Mary or the Saints are in the speaking parts prayers we say, obviously they are right there with us as the Book of Revelation teaches us. Other than Form A of the penitential rite and when we honor the martyrs in one Eucharistic prayer they are there but the priest says that part we don’t and we aren’t asking for intersession during that Eucharistic prayer.

 

[ProdigalSun]

The mass has a lot of prayers to saints and Mary. Am I wrong or missing something?

Ah yes I see, Yes there are prayers to Mary and the other saints in the Mass and we are required at those times to pray the Mass. We all are actively participating in the Mass and is part of the communion. If you omit these certain prayers no one is certainly going to know or come down on you for missing these certain prayers. The bigger issue I’m afraid s the fact that you are not in agreement or believe in the truth of what the CHurch teaches this would certainly exclude you from the communion of the CHurch. YOu would still be able to attend Mass and participate on a certain level but can not avail yourself of any of the sacraments.

Can I ask if you were baptized catholic and confirmed in the church?++

 

[AmosTown]

BE VERY CAREFUL HERE.

ALL CATHOLICS MUST ABSOLUTELY ACCEPT THE CHURCHES TEACHINHS ON MARY THAT ARE DEFINED DOCTRINES AND DOGMA.

What is optional is praying to and THROUGH Her or the Saints.

How can what you say be true if the mass is one prayer in common with the priest and people? The mass parts I’ve been reading have many prayers to Mary and the saints.

 

[Della]

You don’t have to pray the mass together as one common prayer? Everything I’ve read is that the mass is a sacrifice prayer said by the priest and the people as One prayer in common offered to God.

People and the priest in the mass don’t have to be of one body and mind when praying the mass?

Our intention should be that we be of one mind. Everyone has doubts from time to time, but our intention to be of one mind with the Church covers such instances.