Mary, and Jesus’ Birth

[Hope1960]

But when Jesus entered the upper room through the locked door, he was already glorified.

 

[misstherese]

There is also a lot of information Ven. Mary of Agreda gives in her book “The Mystical City of God”. Here is another quote:

The most holy Mary remained in this ecstasy and beatific vision for over an hour immediately preceding her divine delivery. At the moment when She issued from it and regained the use of her senses She felt and saw that the body of the infant God began to move in her virginal womb; how, releasing and freeing Himself from the place which in the course of nature He had occupied for nine months, He now prepared to issue forth from that sacred bridal chamber. This movement not only did not cause any pain or hardship, as happens with the other daughters of Adam and Eve in their childbirths; but filled Her with incomparable joy and delight, causing in her soul and in her virginal body such exalted and divine effects that they exceed all thoughts of men.

At the end of the beatific rapture and vision of the Mother ever Virgin, which I have described above, was born the Sun of Justice, the Only begotten of the eternal Father and of Mary most pure, beautiful, refulgent and immaculate, leaving Her untouched in her virginal integrity and purity and making Her more godlike and forever sacred; for He did not divide, but penetrated the virginal chamber as the rays of the sun penetrate the crystal shrine, lighting it up in prismatic beauty.

The infant God therefore was brought forth from the virginal chamber unencumbered by any corporeal material substance foreign to Himself. But He came forth glorious and transfigured for the divine infinite wisdom decreed and ordained that the glory of his most holy soul should in his Birth overflow and communicate itself to his body, participating in the gifts of glory in the same way as happened afterwards in his Transfiguration on mount Tabor in the presence of the Apostles (Matth. 17, 2). This miracle was not necessary in order to penetrate the virginal enclosure and to leave unimpaired the virginal integrity; for without this Transfiguration God could have brought this about by other miracles. Thus say the holy doctors, who see no other miracle in this Birth than that the Child was born without impairing the virginity of the Mother. It was the will of God that the most blessed Virgin should look upon the body of her Son, the God-man, for this first time in a glorified state for two reasons. The one was in order that by this divine vision the most prudent Mother should conceive the highest reverence for the Majesty of Him whom She was to treat as her Son, the true God-man. Although She was already informed of his two-fold nature, the Lord nevertheless ordained that by ocular demonstration She be filled with new graces, corresponding to the greatness of her most holy Son, which was thus manifested to Her in a visible manner. The second reason was to reward by this wonder the fidelity and holiness of the divine Mother; for her most pure and chaste eyes, that had turned away from all earthly things for love of her most holy Son, were to see Him at his very Birth in this glory and thus be rejoiced and rewarded for her loyalty and beautiful love.

 

[JimG]

But when Jesus entered the upper room through the locked door, he was already glorified.

It doesn’t matter. Just going by the transfiguration, I figure he was capable of being glorified at any time, and capable of the preternatural gifts lost by Adam and Eve, of which this ability would be one.

 

[Hope1960]

So, do you think that He was born without going down the birth canal due to the probability that He could be glorified at will because He’s God?

 

[JimG]

He was born in a way that preserved Mary’s virginity. How that happened, I have no idea, and I’m not going to ask.

 

[BlackFriar]

Exactly so, the acceptance or not has little to do with specific incidents in the text as a whole.

Nor is a canonisation of a person a canonisation of their works - let alone the affirmation of truth re its more fantastic content. It is surely no more than an imprimatur where nothing contradicts dogmatic Church teaching.

Her virtue, not her alleged gift of prophecy, is what is positively affirmed - and the fact she is with God.
No more and no less.

 

[BlackFriar]

It really is little different from the apochryphal stories circulating in the Early Church which she has obviously been “inspired by”. She seems to have omitted the bit about the midwife who paid the penalty for daring to confirm the sorts of things under debate here.
See the Apochryphal Gospel of James: eg Salome (Gospel of James) - Wikipedia )

 

[BlackFriar]

Yes that was the near unanimous speculations of many Greek Fathers of the Church.
However we do not have to accept the physical details as fact.
It is perfectly acceptable to hold Jesus was born in the usual way.

 

[BlackFriar]

Hope1960:

But when Jesus entered the upper room through the locked door, he was already glorified.

It doesn’t matter. Just going by the transfiguration, I figure he was capable of being glorified at any time, and capable of the preternatural gifts lost by Adam and Eve, of which this ability would be one.

I think a point comes when Ochkam’s razor has to kick in or we risk becoming so credulous that the God card can be played to justify any edifying superstition at odds with a reality that most of expect in a true religion as opposed to Jonestown or the cult down the road.

That is, we don’t reasonably explain something my multiplying unlikely reasons and the simplest explanation that accords with nature is usually the correct one.

A time comes when we have to wonder whether the theological truth allegedly being safequarded is becoming the weak link and it offends faith and reason less to look there for an explanation than require seemingly incredulous superstitious physical miracles (which nobody in the Church is prepared to clearly articulate) to make the case.

 

[BlackFriar]

A good response until he starts going off the rails attempting to use Scripture to somehow convince.

I am not sure about the bit that the miracle re coming from Mary’s side is not infallible teaching but still has to be given “religious assent of mind and will.”

I have never really heard a convincing explanation of what that phrase actually means. No doubt the assumed teaching that the sun orbited the earth was considered, if not infallible, also requiring assent of mind and will from Galileo and anybody who agreed with him. That didn’t work out well for the Church did it.

Is good faith questioning of this odd teaching here an indication of not giving intellectual assent - even if, like Galileo, we may be correct in asserting normal birth?

Hope not.

 

[Vico]

Ok, Mary was free from the pain of childbirth and the seal was unbroken. Jesus was born supernaturally (which my link also said) and it was likened to light shining through a pane of glass but…then is it certain that Jesus did not come down the birth canal? I think all these things could be fact and He could still have come down the birth canal. I need to buy Tim Staples book.

Tim Staples notes that the supernatural quality of the birth is a teaching of the ordinary Magisterium rather than an infallible definition so that it is not a matter of faith but only one of giving religious assent.

Ancient belief (one example):

St. Ambrose: “Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity.” -St. Ambrose (The Consecration of a Virgin and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary , 8:52)

Ezekiel 44

1 And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut.
2 And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Do we live in the Kingdom of the world or do we live in the Kingdom of God, on earth?

The Kingdom of the world, the secular world where we are becoming desensitised to violence, pornography, you name it. So now we believe it’s ok to discuss the private details of the private and personal physiology of our greatest Saint. In my mother and grandmothers time this would not be discussed,
People would not be sitting around discussing it.

There is so much disordered wrong with this.

Living in the Kingdom of God here on earth means not discussing, or even contemplating, the private and personal physiology of Our Lady.

 

[jas84173]

How is she a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters ? Lmao.

 

[De_Maria]

Thanks. I wasn’t aware of any of that.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

And there you go, people disrespecting, insulting and blaspheming our greatest Saint. Getting a forum on threads like this.

 

[lilypadrees]

I agree. It is an insult to the Blessed Virgin and none of our business.

 

[De_Maria]

How is she a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters ? Lmao.

Jesus didn’t have brothers and sisters “of the womb”. Let me explain:

Mk 3:31-35 I’ve broken it down in bold.

The mother of Jesus
A reference to Mary.

and his brothers

A reference to the Apostles. Why do I say that?

Let me show you:
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

James, Joses, Simon and Judas, they claim, are the other children of the Virgin Mary and therefore brothers of Christ.

They neglect the following verses:

Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, …

We know this is not the Virgin Mary because there is another Mary who is kin to the Virgin Mary AND is frequently in the company of Mary Magdalene:

John 19:25
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

So, who are James and Joses and Simon and Judas?

Joses is the only one whose identity is not known other than that he is the son of the other Mary. The other three, James, Simon and Judas are Apostles of Christ.

Here are the lists, I’ll skip over the other Apostles and focus on these three:
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, … The first, Simon, who is called Peter,…James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;…and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, 19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) …James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

What about Joses? It is possible that Matthew is Joses. Most Bible Scholars agree that the Apostle sometimes referred to as Levi, is Matthew. Note that Levi is also a son of Alphaeus:

Matthew 9:9
And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Mark 2:14
And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.

One thing this tells us is that Jesus’ family was complicated. Jesus is a son of David. Yet, one of His cousins is St. John the Baptist, the son of Zechariah, a Levite. Whether St. Elizabeth is of the line of Levi is not mentioned. But it is doubtful since she is Mary’s cousin. It is possible that Levi/Matthew somehow is related to Jesus through this connection. We continue:

arrived at the house.

Anyway, these are the brethren of Jesus who arrived at the house. It is natural that they would frequently keep company with the Virgin Mary, their aunt.

Standing outside, they sent word to Jesus and called him.

It was too crowded for them to come in so they called to the Lord from outside.

A crowd seated around him told him,
“Your mother and your brothers and your sisters
are outside asking for you.”

This point is frequently missed by those who claim that Jesus had brothers. The verse mentions “sisters”. There are two women who are “kin” to Jesus and Mary. They are the other Mary, who is called His mother’s “sister” in Scripture. And her daughter.

The other Mary is the mother of James, Joses, Simon, Judas and Salome. Therefore, Salome is also Jesus’ cousin several times removed.

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

So far, we’ve identified the Apostles James the son of Alphaeus, Judas his brother, and Simon also James’ brother as kin to Jesus. And possibly, Levi the son of Alphaeus also known as Matthew. That makes four Apostles kin to Jesus.

Salome, we identify as the sister of James, Judas, Simon and possibly Levi because they have the same mother and the same father. But Salome is also the mother of Zebedee’s children. James and John.

Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

These are the same three women looking upon Jesus from afar during the Crucifixion. Salome then is the mother of Zebedee’s children which just happen to be the Boarnges, the Sons of Thunder, Sts. James the greater and John the beloved of Jesus. All of which are related to Jesus by virtue of being kin to His mother.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Anyway…

But he said to them in reply,

“Who are my mother and my brothers?”

And looking around at those seated in the circle he said,
“Here are my mother and my brothers.
For whoever does the will of God
is my brother and sister and mother.”

Now, many people claim that in so saying, Jesus denied that Mary was His mother. Or that He somehow rejected her. But in this verse, He actually affirms her fidelity and love. Scripture does not contradict itself, folks. In Luke 1:28, God calls Mary the kecharitomene, she who is always full of grace.

Why? Because she always does His will. And here, Jesus says that those who are related to Him are they who do the will of His Father. Therefore, Jesus here affirms the motherhood of Mary. Because she is the most faithful woman that ever lived.

And, there’s one more point to make. The other brothers and sisters of Jesus, are His disciples. Let me show you that:

John 20:16 Jesus saith to her: Mary. She turning, saith to him: Rabboni (which is to say, Master).
17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
18 Mary Magdalen cometh, and telleth the disciples: I have seen the Lord, and these things he said to me.

Notice that Jesus said, “go to my brethren.” And Mary went to the disciples. Do you think she wouldn’t know the difference between His brothers and His disciples if they were different sets of people?

Anyway, I hope that helps.

 

[Vico]

How is she a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters ? Lmao.

There are several Catholic dogmas of faith with regard to The Mother of God:

Mary is truly the Mother of God.
Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin.
Mary was a Virgin before, during, and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.

Mary conceived Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man.
Mary bore her Son Jesus Chris without any violation of her virginal integrity.
Also after the Birth of her Son Jesus Christ, Mary remained a virgin.

Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

Three stars on the icon of the Theotokos indicate ever virgin: before, during, and after.
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