Mary, and Jesus’ Birth

[Don_Ruggero]

Father, I have concluded that her thought process is beyond my ability to engage.

Beside the sanctuary, my priesthood has unfolding largely in the lecture hall and the academy. I am accustomed, across these decades, to interacting with reasonable and rational minds.

After the images she posted, I conclude my contribution to any attempt at dialogue with her…or with him…or with whatever Maria is…is not constructive and is actually futile.

And to think of all the lectures I actually gave over the years on virginitas in partu.

 

[JimG]

So, do you understand what I mean when I say that in Theology we have to ask ourselves “what value does this statement uphold?”

Well, yes, I think I understand what you mean by that. A theological statement upholds particular values.

A large part of this thread, though, seems to be about not just what values a doctrinal statement upholds, but about what actually happened. This is why there has been such an unseemly emphasis on anatomical details.

I agree with you that the verb “born” is an important value, and also an important fact. Jesus was born of a virgin in Bethlehem. I agree that his being fully human implies that he had a human birth. The details of that birth seem to me to be unknowable. Surely his birth was not so different from others as to be deemed not a human birth, but I don’t think that rules out some different aspects, whether freedom from labor pains or ease of delivery. None of that seems to be a matter of doctrine.

I read the article from the HPR linked by Don_Ruggero. This part of it seems to me to summarize the situation:

“In treating the Virgin birth, Gerhard Ludwig Müller does not rush in where angels fear to tread, but follows these recommendations to the letter. He carefully identifies what the Catholic Church actually does teach (the Virgin birth of Jesus), and cautions the reader that the exact physiological details thereof are not an article of faith. Christ, being almighty God, was able to heal a severed ear in Gethsemane, and also to visit his disciples on Easter night although the doors were locked. In the matter of the Virgin birth, as with belief in Marian apparitions approved by the Church, one can be a minimalist, or a maximalist, and still be a good Catholic.”

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96:

So, do you understand what I mean when I say that in Theology we have to ask ourselves “what value does this statement uphold?”

…
I don’t think that rules out some different aspects, whether freedom from labor pains or ease of delivery. None of that seems to be a matter of doctrine.
…

That’s what I meant earlier. You’re jumping ahead.

For example, “freedom from labor pains” is indeed a matter of dogma (yes dogma) because labor pains are a result of Original Sin. Our Blessed Mother was free of Original Sin. This is the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

My point here is NOT to discuss this part further, but to say “let’s not discuss it for now” exactly because it takes us off-course and we spend time discussing finer points (like the above) which belong later in the conversation.

I’ll get back to this later. Meantime, please do me a favor. Please re-read my earlier post. Take it at face value. Don’t try (not yet) to apply it to the discussion. Just read it through again and get back to me.

Also, don’t make any connection between my Bethlehem sentences and the topic at hand. Take that as coincidence, which it truly is.

 

[JimG]

Okay, if the question is whether I understand that a theological statement is about values, I agree. And I agree that one must ask what values they uphold. And I’ll refrain from going further. What then?

 

[FrDavid96]

…
I would suggest that, in addition to Don Arthur’s article that someone has found, @FrDavid96 might find of interest the treatment by the successor of Cardinal Ottaviani, the recently departed Prefect of the CDF, Cardinal Müller. He will find it in Katholische Dogmatik: Für Studium und Praxis der Theologie which is what I used concerning virginitas in partu when I taught Mariology in the final years at the time while he was still Bishop of Regensburg.

If Father is not fortunate enough to speak German, he will find something of it via the American periodical, Homiletics and Pastoral Review.

Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller and the Virgin Birth - Homiletic & Pastoral Review

Again, thank you.

It’s taken me a while to respond because I’ve read it through 3 times now to absorb what it is or is not saying.

Now, the challenge is how to explain it in a forum like this? If such is even possible.

In the meantime, there is still the issue of the monitum of the Holy Office.

We know that it was published in AAS 52. Here is a link to it, for your convenience. http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/documents/AAS-52-1960-ocr.pdf
It is 1,132 pages, and mostly in Latin and some Italian.

Finding the monitum itself is the needle in the haystack.

I’ve searched the document for obvious key-words, but with no luck.

I won’t ask you to read 1,132 pages of Latin! However, if you could spare me some time, I would appreciate if you could give me some assistance in locating the monitum within AAS 52 or if you happen to know of some other place I can find it (and yes, I’ve spend quite some time searching) on the internet.

Many thanks.

 

[FrDavid96]

Okay, if the question is whether I understand that a theological statement is about values, I agree. And I agree that one must ask what values they uphold. And I’ll refrain from going further. What then?

I will get back to you soon.