Mary and Jesus

[Faith101]

peace be upon them both

i couldnt think of a better title to the thread…i had a question

If Mary (may God be please with her) was not married when she gave birth to Jesus peace be upon him, then why didnt the people kill her? (according to the laws they had, that was the punishment for a fornicator).

 

[JimG]

Mary and Joseph were married at the time of Jesus’ birth.

 

[Faith101]

JimG:

Mary and Joseph were married at the time of Jesus’ birth.

So how did everyone know that she was a virgin…?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

WHy not read Luke chapters 1 and 2 in their entirety? Luke says that Mary was virgin, betrothed to Joseph. The angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will conceive a Son, who will be “the Holy One, Son of God” through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph, on finding out Mary’s pregnancy, decides to “put her away quietly”–so that she would NOT be denounced. The angel Gabriel then appears to Joseph and tells him, “Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. The child she bears is the Messiah, the Son of God”. SO–Joseph does just that. He carries on with the ultimate result of the betrothal–the marriage. Mary remains virgin.

If you continue on with the gospel, you will note that even though “brethren” of Jesus are listed, the word “brethren” or “brother” are used of other relationships than that of sibling. For example, in Genesis, Lot is referred to as the BROTHER of Abraham, though he is in fact the NEPHEW of Abraham. No other child “born of Mary” is ever noted save Jesus. Not only that, Luke ALSO notes that the crucification of Jesus, Jesus announced to his disciple John, “Here is your mother” and to Mary “Here is your son” AND that John “Took Mary into his home”. If there were other children of Mary it would have been THEIR responsibility to care for Mary.

Sacred tradition from the time of the apostles (who would have been very careful to shield the Mother of Jesus from persecution as she would have been a prime target for those looking to destroy the early Christians) tells us that Mary was Virgin and remained so.

 

[Faith101]

Tantum ergo:

WHy not read Luke chapters 1 and 2 in their entirety? Luke says that Mary was virgin, betrothed to Joseph. The angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will conceive a Son, who will be “the Holy One, Son of God” through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph, on finding out Mary’s pregnancy, decides to “put her away quietly”–so that she would NOT be denounced. The angel Gabriel then appears to Joseph and tells him, “Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. The child she bears is the Messiah, the Son of God”. SO–Joseph does just that. He carries on with the ultimate result of the betrothal–the marriage. Mary remains virgin.

If you continue on with the gospel, you will note that even though “brethren” of Jesus are listed, the word “brethren” or “brother” are used of other relationships than that of sibling. For example, in Genesis, Lot is referred to as the BROTHER of Abraham, though he is in fact the NEPHEW of Abraham. No other child “born of Mary” is ever noted save Jesus. Not only that, Luke ALSO notes that the crucification of Jesus, Jesus announced to his disciple John, “Here is your mother” and to Mary “Here is your son” AND that John “Took Mary into his home”. If there were other children of Mary it would have been THEIR responsibility to care for Mary.

Sacred tradition from the time of the apostles (who would have been very careful to shield the Mother of Jesus from persecution as she would have been a prime target for those looking to destroy the early Christians) tells us that Mary was Virgin and remained so.

thank you for your explanation. This is what i understood, that basically no one except Joseph knew that Mary was a virgin and this fact was kept hidden from all the people. So the virgin birth is one of the miracles that the Children of Isreal at the time did not know of?

also, what do you mean by “Sacred tradition from the time of the apostles” was Luke an apostle?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There were the twelve apostles (disciples of Jesus), one of whom, Judas, the betrayer, was then replaced with the apostle Matthias. But also counted among the apostles was St. Paul, called “apostle to the Gentiles”. Additionally, St. Luke is considered an apostle because of his two contributions to scripture, his gospel, and the “Acts of the Apostles”. St. Mark, a relation of St. Peter, is another consided an apostle because of HIS gospel of Mark. Finally, St. John and St. Matthew, two of Jesus’s disciples, also wrote gospels, and St. John wrote in addition the mystic book of revelation.

Disciples were those who worked with the apostles (Timothy with St. Paul, for example) as well as those who went on in the earliest times, and continuing to today. We Catholics today are disciples of Christ as well.

The Children of Israel had many signs of Christ as the Messiah, from the announcement of the angels to the Shepherds at the birth of Jesus, to the wise men telling King Herod of the Star of the Child’s birth. And indeed the scribes knew of the prophecy that “Bethlehem of Judah” was to be the birthplace of the Messiah, and told the King so. And we know that Herod slaughtered the Holy Innocents–children 2 years old and younger–trying to kill the newborn babe–and that is why Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fled to Egypt, being warned by the angel Gabriel.

There was knowledge with some, and certainly Jesus made Himself known to the pharisees and scribes in His mission, as well as making Himself known, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles.

 

[Faith101]

There were the twelve apostles (disciples of Jesus), one of whom, Judas, the betrayer, was then replaced with the apostle Matthias. But also counted among the apostles was St. Paul, called “apostle to the Gentiles”. Additionally, St. Luke is considered an apostle because of his two contributions to scripture, his gospel, and the “Acts of the Apostles”. St. Mark, a relation of St. Peter, is another consided an apostle because of HIS gospel of Mark. Finally, St. John and St. Matthew, two of Jesus’s disciples, also wrote gospels, and St. John wrote in addition the mystic book of revelation.

thank you for the explanation…but it is still unclear.
You said that the virginity of Mary is known because Luke said this and this…although it was hidden from everyone at the time of Jesus (except from Joseph). Was Luke among those who lived at the time of Jesus peace be upon him? How did he know that Mary was a virgin if it was intentionally hid from everyone?

The Children of Israel had many signs of Christ as the Messiah, from the announcement of the angels to the Shepherds at the birth of Jesus, to the wise men telling King Herod of the Star of the Child’s birth. And indeed the scribes knew of the prophecy that “Bethlehem of Judah” was to be the birthplace of the Messiah, and told the King so. And we know that Herod slaughtered the Holy Innocents–children 2 years old and younger–trying to kill the newborn babe–and that is why Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fled to Egypt, being warned by the angel Gabriel.

But did they know that he was born from a virgin? and if so, then how if it was kept hidden from them?

There was knowledge with some, and certainly Jesus made Himself known to the pharisees and scribes in His mission, as well as making Himself known, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles.

i agree that Jesus peace be upon him made himself and his mission known to the children of Israel…but thats off topic. please address the questions above…and thank you

 

[exoflare]

They didn’t say this information about the virgin birth originated with the gospel of Luke - that’s just where it’s recorded for everybody to read today. The teachings were known to all Christians even before St. Luke decided to write his gospel from the traditions available to him. St. Luke was also a companion of St. Paul.

If you want to know more about the book of Luke in the Bible read this: newadvent.org/cathen/09420a.htm

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

They didn’t say this information about the virgin birth originated with the gospel of Luke - that’s just where it’s recorded for everybody to read today. The teachings were known to all Christians even before St. Luke decided to write his gospel from the traditions available to him. St. Luke was also a companion of St. Paul.

If you want to know more about the book of Luke in the Bible read this: newadvent.org/cathen/09420a.htm

you guys are giving good information, however its not on the topic at hand.

So neither Luke nor Paul were with Jesus peace be upon him, but knew from oral traditions that Jesus was born from a virgin. How did the people know he was born from a virgin when it was intentionally kept hidden from them? (b/c according to your replies, they believed that Mary was married to Joseph)

Was it the one miracle that was kept hidden from the Children of Israel and only told to those who believed Jesus peace be upon him?

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

So neither Luke nor Paul were with Jesus peace be upon him, but knew from oral traditions that Jesus was born from a virgin. How did the people know he was born from a virgin when it was intentionally kept hidden from them? (b/c according to your replies, they believed that Mary was married to Joseph)

Was it the one miracle that was kept hidden from the Children of Israel and only told to those who believed Jesus peace be upon him?

St. Paul had contact with the other apostles, especially Peter. He would have known from that in any case.

I’m not sure who exactly were the first ones to have it revealed to them that Mary remained a virgin and at which exact times, though… that’s a good question. I just figured that at the specific time each one of them came to believe, they put two and two together themselves and had it confirmed later with the specific teaching of the apostles. Maybe it worked a little differently, I’d have to look.

 

[allhers]

I know of some places where you can read more about the Blessed Mother, and I will give you the links following this.
I just wanted to say that I read this whole thread and no one actually, except you, said that it was kept hidden from them. I would imagine that they would have known. In the Book Isiah it speaks of a Virgin giving birth, and since they were Jews I would imagine that they knew after the fact that she was indeed the one. Know what I mean?
Like at the time that she was carrying Jesus, only her and St. Joseph (and St. Elizabeth, and the baby she was carrying - St. John - would have known for sure that it was her.) St. Luke’s gospel tells us that when the Blessed Mother went to visit her cousin Elizabeth that the baby in her womb leapt for joy and Elizabeth cried out, “how is it that the mother of my Lord (God) should come to me?” (They were filled with the Holy Spirit) Then the prophetess Anna and Simeon knew when St. Joseph and the Blessed Mother presented Jesus in the Temple, that is why Simeon said that “this child will be the down fall of many and a sword of sorrow shall pierce your heart also” (not exactly in those words, I didn’t look it up first) but they knew He was the Messiah.
As to her perpetual virginity, she had already dedicated her life to the service of God, her parents had dedicated her to God when she was very young, like 3 or so, and she herself had made a vow to remain a virgin for the service of God. She was a very pious little girl and understood much as a young age.
Here are some places where you can read more, and if you have more questions, the Apologetics on this site and the experts at EWTN web site are great at answering all questions. We, some of us, can help, but we don’t know it all either. (some know more than others).
www.vatican.va just click on whichever language you want, then in the search engine type in Mary or Blessed Mother or Blessed Virgin Mary.
also at this site here(the one we are on)
www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp (go to the homepage at catholic.com and click on Mary and the Saints and there is a whole section that takes you to the above listed site.)
www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm and
www.newadvent.org/cathen/154646.htm
tells about her being prophesied in the Old Testament (and the verses for it) and about her in the Gospels (and the verses for that), etc… lots of good information.

 

[Wildkit]

Faith101:

thank you for your explanation. This is what i understood, that basically no one except Joseph knew that Mary was a virgin and this fact was kept hidden from all the people. So the virgin birth is one of the miracles that the Children of Isreal at the time did not know of?

also, what do you mean by “Sacred tradition from the time of the apostles” was Luke an apostle?

I am curious as to how you were led to believe something different, that is what is your frame of reference?

Tantum Ergo provided his frame of reference.

Your question, but did they know that he was born from a virgin? and if so, then how if it was kept hidden from them?

I am curious as to your question,…or what is your point? What difference will any answer you receive make? I don’t believe this was a matter where Mary made a big deal out of it and told everyone she knew or ran into, nor is there any evidence of Jesus telling his disciples,…but there is scripture in the Old Testament prophysizing this and after Jesus’s resurrection, disciples gathered more information from Mary, as who else could have told the Apostles about the Christ Child’s birth and the stories about the manger.

Yet you question of how was it kept hidden from them, …I guess one reasonable explanation that works for me was that Mary didn’t need to tell anyone, until Christ’s resurrection, and that’s all there is to the point?

Again, what is your question and why are you asking as it is and has been I believe answered, unless you do not like the answer.

 

[Faith101]

allhers:

I know of some places where you can read more about the Blessed Mother, and I will give you the links following this.
I just wanted to say that I read this whole thread and no one actually, except you, said that it was kept hidden from them. I would imagine that they would have known. In the Book Isiah it speaks of a Virgin giving birth, and since they were Jews I would imagine that they knew after the fact that she was indeed the one. Know what I mean?
Like at the time that she was carrying Jesus, only her and St. Joseph (and St. Elizabeth, and the baby she was carrying - St. John - would have known for sure that it was her.) St. Luke’s gospel tells us that when the Blessed Mother went to visit her cousin Elizabeth that the baby in her womb leapt for joy and Elizabeth cried out, “how is it that the mother of my Lord (God) should come to me?” (They were filled with the Holy Spirit) Then the prophetess Anna and Simeon knew when St. Joseph and the Blessed Mother presented Jesus in the Temple, that is why Simeon said that “this child will be the down fall of many and a sword of sorrow shall pierce your heart also” (not exactly in those words, I didn’t look it up first) but they knew He was the Messiah.
As to her perpetual virginity, she had already dedicated her life to the service of God, her parents had dedicated her to God when she was very young, like 3 or so, and she herself had made a vow to remain a virgin for the service of God. She was a very pious little girl and understood much as a young age.
Here are some places where you can read more, and if you have more questions, the Apologetics on this site and the experts at EWTN web site are great at answering all questions. We, some of us, can help, but we don’t know it all either. (some know more than others).
www.vatican.va just click on whichever language you want, then in the search engine type in Mary or Blessed Mother or Blessed Virgin Mary.
also at this site here(the one we are on)
www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp (go to the homepage at catholic.com and click on Mary and the Saints and there is a whole section that takes you to the above listed site.)
www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm and
www.newadvent.org/cathen/154646.htm
tells about her being prophesied in the Old Testament (and the verses for it) and about her in the Gospels (and the verses for that), etc… lots of good information.

I agree with most of what you said. I know for a fact hat Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus peace be upon him. I also know that the children of Israel knew that Jesus was born from a virgin. How? THe answer is there in Islam. But b/c you dont beleive that Jesus spoke as a baby, i wanted to know why the people did not kill her when she came with a baby, unmarried.

Then, someone here said that she was married. So then i asked, how then did they know that she was a virgin? Or was it kept hidden from them (for if they knew she was not married, they would have killed her…and there was no reason for them to believe that she was a virgin being that they wanted to deny him).

 

[Faith101]

Wildkit:

I am curious as to how you were led to believe something different, that is what is your frame of reference?

Tantum Ergo provided his frame of reference.

Your question, but did they know that he was born from a virgin? and if so, then how if it was kept hidden from them?

I am curious as to your question,…or what is your point? What difference will any answer you receive make? I don’t believe this was a matter where Mary made a big deal out of it and told everyone she knew or ran into, nor is there any evidence of Jesus telling his disciples,…but there is scripture in the Old Testament prophysizing this and after Jesus’s resurrection, disciples gathered more information from Mary, as who else could have told the Apostles about the Christ Child’s birth and the stories about the manger.

Yet you question of how was it kept hidden from them, …I guess one reasonable explanation that works for me was that Mary didn’t need to tell anyone, until Christ’s resurrection, and that’s all there is to the point?

Again, what is your question and why are you asking as it is and has been I believe answered, unless you do not like the answer.

I was speaking with Christian and we were talking about the miracles of Jesus…and i had told him the different miracles that we believed. When it came to the fact that he spoke as a baby, he said that Jesus never did that (or at least its not recorded in the Bible)…thats when i started to wonder, why did the children of Israel let her live if she came to them unmarried with a baby. I had asked the boy that i was talking to, but his answer was very bogus, and i’m sure would upset many of you here. So sicne i already post on this site, i thought to ask the question here.

The question has not been aswered. Maybe I am not clear in phrasing it…if so, i can repeat the question. if no one has an answer, then i can ask elsewhere

thanks

 

[Faith101]

Yet you question of how was it kept hidden from them, …I guess one reasonable explanation that works for me was that Mary didn’t need to tell anyone, until Christ’s resurrection, and that’s all there is to the point?

So you are saying that during the ministry of Jesus, no one knew that he was born from a virgin (that miracalous birth was not known to them) until after he left the earth?

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

So how did everyone know that she was a virgin…?

Is this the question you’re referring to that hasn’t been answered? If so, you need to be a lot more specific. At what exact point in time are you referring to, and why do you think “everyone” necessarily would have known of her virginity at that point?

I think this is why you’re apparently not getting the answer you want.

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

Is this the question you’re referring to that hasn’t been answered? If so, you need to be a lot more specific. At what exact point in time are you referring to, and why do you think “everyone” necessarily would have known of her virginity at that point?

I think this is why you’re apparently not getting the answer you want.

i’ll rephrase and take it one step at a time

Was Jesus’ virgin birth known to the children of Israel during his ministry?

 

[Wildkit]

Faith101:

i’ll rephrase and take it one step at a time

Was Jesus’ virgin birth known to the children of Israel during his ministry?

I see the essence of your rhetorical question concerning the Blessed Mary’s virginity. CA member allhers gave a good synopsis and tracts for finding further information on your question, but since you already have the answer,……why don’t you share it with us, is that the point of your question?

Yet, before you do, could you please answer the question posed by another thread that I have yet found to be answered by anyone. I believe it will be the substance of this thread and likely many other posts.

July 14, 2005 12:47 AM
Ghosty Quote:
Yes however we believe that many of the people of the book distorted it and changed parts of it. (the Bible)

Herein lies the problem: Prove it.

You can only do so by relying on the Quran, but the Quran relies on the distortion of Scripture being true in order for itself to be true and necessary. In other words, the ONLY testimony that the Quran can give is that Scripture is distorted. We need OUTSIDE proof, seperate from the Quran, to validate the Muslim claim.

For example, you can’t ask a liar if he’s lying. If he is actually an honest man, he will say he is not a liar, and if he is a liar, he will say that he is not a liar. Likewise, if the Quran is truth it will say it is, and if it is a lie it will say it is the truth.

The Scriptures of the Jews do not rely on the writings of the Jews to validate them. The EXISTANCE of the Jews is proof of the Scriptures of the Jews, because the Scriptures claim that God promised them survival as a unique people and culture for all time. No other contemporary people or culture of theirs have survived on any continent. Therefore, while it’s not absolute proof, it does strongly substantiate their claim, and encourages us to look deeper at their other claims. One of their claims, incidently, is that a Messiah will come (around the time that Jesus was born, though later Jews have revised this prediction) and that he will bring the final revelation for all people.

Likewise, the Scriptures of the Christians do not rely upon themselves for validation. There are numerous writings outside of Scripture, some by non-Christians (Josephus, Talmud) that verify the existance and practices of the early Christians. Furthermore, non-Scriptural writings by people who personally knew the Apostles record their teachings as identical to what we find in Scripture, and identical to the Catholic Church today. Christian Scripture states that this is the final revelation for all people.

Now fast-forward 600 years and we have a man who claims to have a message from God, but this message absolutely depends on both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures being distorted in order to be acceptable. This man, and his followers, have not provided any proof (to my knowledge) that these Scriptures are distorted, but rather depend on us taking Mohammed’s word for it.

Please provide proof of the distortion of that you claim from outside of the Quran. When you’ve done that, we can address the issue on reasonable terms.

The essence of whom knew and at what time will not change the ultimate fact and belief of Mary’s virginity. It was prophesized, Christ’s revelation and miracles on earth, the continuing miracles in His Church since his death on Calvary are recurring examples for all of us.

I might add, these continuing miracles,………yes they are a mystery, but why are they predominately/only in Christ’s Church? Is there something wrong with this question/observation?

 

[Faith101]

Wildkit:

I see the essence of your rhetorical question concerning the Blessed Mary’s virginity. CA member allhers gave a good synopsis and tracts for finding further information on your question, but since you already have the answer,……why don’t you share it with us, is that the point of your question?

Yet, before you do, could you please answer the question posed by another thread that I have yet found to be answered by anyone. I believe it will be the substance of this thread and likely many other posts.

July 14, 2005 12:47 AM
Ghosty Quote:
Yes however we believe that many of the people of the book distorted it and changed parts of it. (the Bible)

Herein lies the problem: Prove it.

You can only do so by relying on the Quran, but the Quran relies on the distortion of Scripture being true in order for itself to be true and necessary. In other words, the ONLY testimony that the Quran can give is that Scripture is distorted. We need OUTSIDE proof, seperate from the Quran, to validate the Muslim claim.

For example, you can’t ask a liar if he’s lying. If he is actually an honest man, he will say he is not a liar, and if he is a liar, he will say that he is not a liar. Likewise, if the Quran is truth it will say it is, and if it is a lie it will say it is the truth.

The Scriptures of the Jews do not rely on the writings of the Jews to validate them. The EXISTANCE of the Jews is proof of the Scriptures of the Jews, because the Scriptures claim that God promised them survival as a unique people and culture for all time. No other contemporary people or culture of theirs have survived on any continent. Therefore, while it’s not absolute proof, it does strongly substantiate their claim, and encourages us to look deeper at their other claims. One of their claims, incidently, is that a Messiah will come (around the time that Jesus was born, though later Jews have revised this prediction) and that he will bring the final revelation for all people.

Likewise, the Scriptures of the Christians do not rely upon themselves for validation. There are numerous writings outside of Scripture, some by non-Christians (Josephus, Talmud) that verify the existance and practices of the early Christians. Furthermore, non-Scriptural writings by people who personally knew the Apostles record their teachings as identical to what we find in Scripture, and identical to the Catholic Church today. Christian Scripture states that this is the final revelation for all people.

Now fast-forward 600 years and we have a man who claims to have a message from God, but this message absolutely depends on both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures being distorted in order to be acceptable. This man, and his followers, have not provided any proof (to my knowledge) that these Scriptures are distorted, but rather depend on us taking Mohammed’s word for it.

Please provide proof of the distortion of that you claim from outside of the Quran. When you’ve done that, we can address the issue on reasonable terms.

The essence of whom knew and at what time will not change the ultimate fact and belief of Mary’s virginity. It was prophesized, Christ’s revelation and miracles on earth, the continuing miracles in His Church since his death on Calvary are recurring examples for all of us.

I might add, these continuing miracles,………yes they are a mystery, but why are they predominately/only in Christ’s Church? Is there something wrong with this question/observation?

wildkit

You are free to open another thread on the topic you’ve brought up.
edit:i couldnt help but comment here…you said “but this message absolutely depends on both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures being distorted in order to be acceptable” but the first Muslims knew nothing about christian or jewish scriptures, and they were the people who gave their lives for the message… The Quran stands on its own

I opened this thread to get an answer to my question. If the answer to my question is a mystery, than i will accept that as your perspective and move on. If there is an answer, i would honestly appreciate someone letting me know. thanks

 

[Wildkit]

Faith101:

wildkit

You are free to open another thread on the topic you’ve brought up.
edit:i couldnt help but comment here…you said “but this message absolutely depends on both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures being distorted in order to be acceptable” but the first Muslims knew nothing about christian or jewish scriptures, and they were the people who gave their lives for the message… The Quran stands on its own

I opened this thread to get an answer to my question. If the answer to my question is a mystery, than i will accept that as your perspective and move on. If there is an answer, i would honestly appreciate someone letting me know. thanks

Faith 101:

You are correct, I can open another thread, but given your knowledge of the Quran and how it stands on its own, I’ll just continue to wait.