Mary and Jesus

[JimG]

As far as I know, how the virgin birth came to be commonly known among the early Christians is not recorded in the Gospels. Many things were commonly known to the Apostles, and passed on to their successors, which might not have been recorded. It is likely that Mary herself was a source for many of the events recounted in the Gospel of Luke. Mary also lived with the Apostle John after the resurrection of Jesus, so it’s quite likely that she shared with him the infancy events of Jesus. In any case, the method of transmission is not critical from a doctrinal standpoint.

It is also far from certain that Jewish authorities would have sought to impose a death penalty on Mary had she not been married to Joseph.

Recall that in another biblical incident, the Jewish authorities brought a woman to Jesus who had been caught in adultery. She was officially subject to the death penalty. But that was not why they brought her to Jesus. They simply wanted to trick him into either condemning her to death or rejecting the Law. But he did neither.

Had they really wanted to execute her, they need not have brought her to Jesus. And in any case, they were prevented from carrying out any executions by the Roman law, to which they were subject.

So Mary would not have been subject to the death penalty in any case.

 

[Faith101]

Wildkit:

Faith 101:

You are correct, I can open another thread, but given your knowledge of the Quran and how it stands on its own, I’ll just continue to wait.

Yes, the Quran does not depend on the scriptures which you say it has to depend on.

 

[Faith101]

Recall that in another biblical incident, the Jewish authorities brought a woman to Jesus who had been caught in adultery. She was officially subject to the death penalty. But that was not why they brought her to Jesus. They simply wanted to trick him into either condemning her to death or rejecting the Law. But he did neither.

Had they really wanted to execute her, they need not have brought her to Jesus. And in any case, they were prevented from carrying out any executions by the Roman law, to which they were subject.

thats interesting you brought that up.

what is your opinion of this religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm

So Mary would not have been subject to the death penalty in any case.

Given the uncertainty of the source of the story you quoted above, what is your conclusion based on? Are you saying the Jews did not live by the law, and carried it out whenever needed?

 

[George_Waters]

Faith 101,

Why did Jesus’ virgin birth have to be known by everyone? Does it make it a greater miracle if it is commonly known, a lesser miracle if it is not? Is the fact that it is fulfilling prophecy and the will of God not enough? I asked in another thread about the virgin birth of Jesus and was told by the Muslim members that replied that Islam does believe in the virgin birth of Jesus and that it was a sign of His prophet-hood. As Christianity and Islam agree on the virgin birth of Jesus I would have thought you would already have the Islamic answer to your question.

Peace

George

 

[Edris]

As far as I know, how the virgin birth came to be commonly known among the early Christians is not recorded in the Gospels. Many things were commonly known to the Apostles, and passed on to their successors, which might not have been recorded. It is likely that Mary herself was a source for many of the events recounted in the Gospel of Luke. Mary also lived with the Apostle John after the resurrection of Jesus, so it’s quite likely that she shared with him the infancy events of Jesus. In any case, the method of transmission is not critical from a doctrinal standpoint.

It is also far from certain that Jewish authorities would have sought to impose a death penalty on Mary had she not been married to Joseph.

Recall that in another biblical incident, the Jewish authorities brought a woman to Jesus who had been caught in adultery. She was officially subject to the death penalty. But that was not why they brought her to Jesus. They simply wanted to trick him into either condemning her to death or rejecting the Law. But he did neither.

Had they really wanted to execute her, they need not have brought her to Jesus. And in any case, they were prevented from carrying out any executions by the Roman law, to which they were subject.

So Mary would not have been subject to the death penalty in any case.

The virgin birth is not the only thing that was not recorded in the Bible. Anyways, no problem. But doesn’t that tickle your brain, like why such important facts about Jesus are not mentioned, and trust me this is important. Yet as Sh. Ahmad Deedat said, not one single Gospel missed the fact that Jesus pbuh rode the donky into jerusalem (Matt. 21:7), (Mark 11:7), (Luke 19:35), and (John 12:14). But the ascension which was mentioned in only two of the four Gospels was ommitted in the RSV in 1952 version, and restored in the publication of 1972. 20 years without the verses about the ascension. and only God knows what else the church deletes and adds.

I tried to look for a reason on why ascension was mentioned in only two of the four Gospels and here is the christian answer

“Why is there no account of the ascension of our Lord in Matthew? Well, because as King, he came to rule on earth. Matthew’s emphasis is on the kingdom on earth. “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.” The ascension is not mentioned in John, because Jesus is the Son of God, and God is everywhere. God is omnipresent and does not go from earth to heaven or heaven to earth; therefore, there is no account of the ascension in John.” (Ray C. Stedman)

It’s really sad. Anyways, i know the ascension is not the topic, i’m just giving an example.

You keep claiming the Qur’an depends on proving the Bible is distorted, and that the Qur’an is copied from the Bible. Yet the question that’s been asked by sister Faith has not been asnwered, so far all your replies are guessings and attempts to avoide the answer. The Qur’an answers this question in less than half a verse. The Qur’an gives information that is not recorded in the Bible, proves that the Mary was a virgin when she gave birth, proves that the children of Israel knew about this virgin birth while Jesus pbuh was still in the cradle, and also clears Mary (may God bless her) from any claims that she committed a sin.

Peace

 

[JimG]

I would be far less likely to trust the Quran, which came 600 years after the events of Jesus birth, to be a reliable source than I would the Apostles and the gospel writers who were contemporaries of Jesus.

I am not aware of any scholarly source-analysis or historical critical analysis of the Quran, but coming 600 years after the fact, I would have to guess that the sources were heretical Jewish or Gnostic Christian sects.

Are you saying the Jews did not live by the law, and carried it out whenever needed?

I am saying that the Jews of Jesus’ time practiced the (Old Testament) Law to the extent allowed by the Roman Empire, whose jurisdiction they were under. They were not permitted to enact the death penalty, even though the Law permitted it. This is seen by the fact they permission of the Roman governor had to be obtained for Jesus execution; (which fact is, incidentally, denied by the Quran.)

 

[JimG]

Perhaps the key is that, for Catholics anyway, it’s not primarily about a Book, not even about the bible. It’s about Jesus, whom God sent, not to write a book, but to reveal Himself, and to establish the new covenant with his salvation.

 

[Reuben_J]

Edris:

The virgin birth is not the only thing that was not recorded in the Bible. Anyways, no problem. But doesn’t that tickle your brain, like why such important facts about Jesus are not mentioned, and trust me this is important. Yet as Sh. Ahmad Deedat said, not one single Gospel missed the fact that Jesus pbuh rode the donky into jerusalem (Matt. 21:7), (Mark 11:7), (Luke 19:35), and (John 12:14).
Peace

Can you please clarify with the statement that the virgin birth is not recorded in the bible, because they were actually recorded in the bible!

Matt 1: 20 -21 " … For it is by the Holy Spirit that she was conceived. She will have a son, and you will name him Jesus - because he will save his people from their sins".

Luke 1:31, 34 You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. … Mary said to the angel, “I am a virgin. How then can this be?”

BTW, how respected in this person Sh. Ahmad Deedat with regard his authority on the bible?

Edris:

But the ascension which was mentioned in only two of the four Gospels was ommitted in the RSV in 1952 version, and restored in the publication of 1972. 20 years without the verses about the ascension. and only God knows what else the church deletes and adds.

I tried to look for a reason on why ascension was mentioned in only two of the four Gospels and here is the christian answer

It’s really sad. Anyways, i know the ascension is not the topic, i’m just giving an example.

The ascension was recorded so that now we hear that (1)Jesus had risen from the dead and (2) he ascended to heaven.

Does the fact that the ascension was mentioned only in the two gospels cause any problem?

 

[exoflare]

Edris:

You keep claiming the Qur’an depends on proving the Bible is distorted, and that the Qur’an is copied from the Bible. Yet the question that’s been asked by sister Faith has not been asnwered, so far all your replies are guessings and attempts to avoide the answer. The Qur’an answers this question in less than half a verse. The Qur’an gives information that is not recorded in the Bible, proves that the Mary was a virgin when she gave birth, proves that the children of Israel knew about this virgin birth while Jesus pbuh was still in the cradle, and also clears Mary (may God bless her) from any claims that she committed a sin.

She didn’t ASK where the virgin birth is stated in the Bible… it is in the Gospel of Luke, and she knew that already. She was asking how Luke would have known about it. Have you even been reading the earlier posts on here?

By the way, the Quran doesn’t “prove” anything, unless you consider an allegation and a proof the same thing.

 

[allhers]

exoflare:

She didn’t ASK where the virgin birth is stated in the Bible… it is in the Gospel of Luke, and she knew that already. She was asking how Luke would have known about it. Have you even been reading the earlier posts on here?

By the way, the Quran doesn’t “prove” anything, unless you consider an allegation and a proof the same thing.

Have you? I said a long time ago that the people knew it, it is recorded in Isiah. The reason it is written down in Isiah is because it was revealed by the Prophet Isiah.

 

[Faith101]

George Waters:

Faith 101,

Why did Jesus’ virgin birth have to be known by everyone? Does it make it a greater miracle if it is commonly known, a lesser miracle if it is not? Is the fact that it is fulfilling prophecy and the will of God not enough? I asked in another thread about the virgin birth of Jesus and was told by the Muslim members that replied that Islam does believe in the virgin birth of Jesus and that it was a sign of His prophet-hood. As Christianity and Islam agree on the virgin birth of Jesus I would have thought you would already have the Islamic answer to your question.

Peace

George

George

It was just a question i was curious about. I have not recieved an answer to it from any of the posts thus far. It is important, because it is (in this story) the missing link between what is in the Bible and the added miracle about Jesus from the Quran.

It is not about whether it was known or unknown…if it was known they would have killed her…and if it was unknown than how did it come to be known. It really is a valid question that i thought would have simply been aswered by someone here. I honestly wanst trying to start a debate.

I’ll just take it to be another mystery.

Thanks for all those that responded.

 

[exoflare]

allhers:

Have you? I said a long time ago that the people knew it, it is recorded in Isiah. The reason it is written down in Isiah is because it was revealed by the Prophet Isiah.

Okay? I’m not denying that though. I was talking about Edris changing the question, and trying to pass off the virgin birth as not ever being recorded in the Bible.

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

what is your opinion of this religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm

It’s not exactly a huge secret, either. That part of John is known to have been added later, and it even says in the footnotes of a lot of Bibles. That’s why you’re able to read about it today. Do you really think there’s some massive cover-up in the works here? Why this is always brought up as a tangent that’s supposed to bother us I have no idea.

 

[exoflare]

Basically, Faith101, the answer to your question is that aside from certain people mentioned in the Gospels we don’t have a detailed roster sheet of which Israelites were made aware of the virgin birth before others, the specific way each and every one of them found out, or in what order. We don’t know how many of the Israelites chose to believe it or deny it when it was somehow revealed to them. It was just not necessary to compile an exhaustive survey on such trivial information.

Therefore, none of us can give you such specific details. I don’t know why that information is so important to you, but if it is then I guess it really must remain a mystery. Sorry about that.

 

[allhers]

sorry exoflare–I am a twit!! :whacky: My response was meant for Edris, not you.

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

It’s not exactly a huge secret, either. That part of John is known to have been added later, and it even says in the footnotes of a lot of Bibles. That’s why you’re able to read about it today. Do you really think there’s some massive cover-up in the works here? Why this is always brought up as a tangent that’s supposed to bother us I have no idea.

i didnt think it was a huge secret…i mean if i have access to it, the whole world probably does.

I guess I come from a different background, where no one can change/add/delete anything from divine revelation. THe same standard is not held for the Bible by Christians i suppose.

IF it is added later and it is something they “wish Jesus could have said and done” then how can someone use it as proof for anything if they KNOW that it didnt come from him, but from someone who wished it did?

Also, if they could add this part, then how can someone be sure that they didnt add or delete other parts of the Bible. Yes, you know about this particular incident (and i think there are a few others that are added as footnotes in the Bible) …but how many others are there that you dont know about? How can you trust the Bible if you dont know if all of it originate from Jesus?

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

Basically, Faith101, the answer to your question is that aside from certain people mentioned in the Gospels we don’t have a detailed roster sheet of which Israelites were made aware of the virgin birth before others, the specific way each and every one of them found out, or in what order. We don’t know how many of the Israelites chose to believe it or deny it when it was somehow revealed to them. It was just not necessary to compile an exhaustive survey on such trivial information.

Therefore, none of us can give you such specific details. I don’t know why that information is so important to you, but if it is then I guess it really must remain a mystery. Sorry about that.

You are making it seem like i’m asking for some impossible roster with a timetable. I’m not, and you know it. The question is clear, the answer provided is not.

The Quran provides the answer to the so called “mystery”…which i think is kind of interesting, being that we are told so many times that it was copied from the Bible.

thanks again

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

You are making it seem like i’m asking for some impossible roster with a timetable. I’m not, and you know it. The question is clear, the answer provided is not.

The Quran provides the answer to the so called “mystery”…which i think is kind of interesting, being that we are told so many times that it was copied from the Bible.

thanks again

The Quran’s account of Jesus talking from the cradle was not copied from the Bible. It was copied from one of the heretical “Infancy Gospels” that was never included in the Bible. Some stories were taken from the Bible, but there were other sources to be sure.

EDIT: specifically, the Arabic Infancy Gospel here contains this account…read the passage (1:2). Of course, the “Son of God” part differs from theirs, but you get the jist.

(2) He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world.

webcom.com/~gnosis/library/infarab.htm

 

[exoflare]

What I hope is adequately demonstrated in this thread is the continued double-standard Muslims carry against people outside their faith. You see examples of this on the forums repeatedly if you stick around. Why is it for example that Luke’s account of the virgin birth is so thoroughly criticized (or if you’re Edris, it apparently doesn’t exist) and endless indisputable proofs are necessary to trust what it says while the Quran’s account is immediately taken as “proof” because of the mere fact that it is there. Never mind that Luke was written by one who had contact with Jesus’ companions and the Quran was written 600 years later.

 

[exoflare]

Another thread dealing with the John 8 “forgery” for those interested. It cleared some things up for me, anyway.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61225