Mary and Jesus

[allhers]

Faith101:

peace be upon them both

i couldnt think of a better title to the thread…i had a question

If Mary (may God be please with her) was not married when she gave birth to Jesus peace be upon him, then why didnt the people kill her? (according to the laws they had, that was the punishment for a fornicator).

Gosh Faith - it seems you just answered your own question. According to what you want to hear, the only thing acceptable is what you already believe. Hard to learn that way isn’t it? The site’s I presented you with did answer you question and yes, you have missed much.

 

[Faith101]

allhers:

Gosh Faith - it seems you just answered your own question. According to what you want to hear, the only thing acceptable is what you already believe. Hard to learn that way isn’t it? The site’s I presented you with did answer you question and yes, you have missed much.

Do you honestly believe that anyone here has provided an answer to the question? Read through the replies, and you wil find a list of references to the life of Luke, the compilation of this gospel or that…nothing that has anything to do with the question i’ve raised.

I’m not here to debate with you on this issue…i honestly wanted to know.

I’ll look through to see if i missed any new posts since my last log in. If you believe you have provided the answer, then just restate it in simple words here.

 

[Faith101]

Faith 101:

You asked if I wanted to change topics,……maybe others might, but you are off topic.

I will simply copy my response to you several days ago when you remarked that I was off topic. I continue to wait for my proof for the question that I saw several months ago, yet I don’t believe it can be provided, and so the heresy goes on, according to Belloc.

I will try again,…please respond if you or anyone can. This question is the essence of the continuing dialogue.

wildkit

open another thread…this one is already too messy. I apologize if i was off topic, i was simply replying to an allegation that you made that seemed very silly, to put it mildly. I asked for proof. Thats off topic, i know.

 

[allhers]

Ok, here is your question that you started this thread with.

Faith101:

peace be upon them both

i couldnt think of a better title to the thread…i had a question

If Mary (may God be please with her) was not married when she gave birth to Jesus peace be upon him, then why didnt the people kill her? (according to the laws they had, that was the punishment for a fornicator).

Now read the next post right after your post. Post # 2

 

[Faith101]

allhers:

Ok, here is your question that you started this thread with.

Now read the next post right after your post. Post # 2

You mean Jim’s post? How does that answer the question? That just creates another question that needs to be answered, and more of dilemna for those trying to plug the hole.

Allhers, i am honestly seeking an answer to my question. Just re post the answer here if you’ve understood that an actual answer has been given.

i’d apreciate it. thank you

 

[flameburns623]

Faith101:

I have just read this thread. Much of it is taken up with what look to me to be full and complete answers to your question, which you appear disatisfied with, and follwing which you then re-ask your question. You don’t really re-state your question, and it looks to me as if it has been answered. What part of the answers you are getting is unsatisfactory? Luke was a companion of the Apostles and clearly indicates in the introduction to his Gospel how he came by the knowledge which he reports therein. (See Luke 1: 1-3). I don’t understand the point of the question, except that as several have noted, you have a pre-conceived agenda and keep hoping someone will facilitate your achieving of that agenda. If some portion of your question really remains unanswered, you really need to narrow down what that is. If some part of the answers you have gotten raise a new question–acknowledge this and ask whatever fresh question(s) have arisen.

 

[Faith101]

flameburns623:

Faith101:

I have just read this thread. Much of it is taken up with what look to me to be full and complete answers to your question, which you appear disatisfied with, and follwing which you then re-ask your question. You don’t really re-state your question, and it looks to me as if it has been answered. What part of the answers you are getting is unsatisfactory? Luke was a companion of the Apostles and clearly indicates in the introduction to his Gospel how he came by the knowledge which he reports therein. (See Luke 1: 1-3). I don’t understand the point of the question, except that as several have noted, you have a pre-conceived agenda and keep hoping someone will facilitate your achieving of that agenda. If some portion of your question really remains unanswered, you really need to narrow down what that is. If some part of the answers you have gotten raise a new question–acknowledge this and ask whatever fresh question(s) have arisen.

I am the first to say “thank you for answering my question, it has been answered” as you can tell ifyou search my other questions throughout this forum.

But the question has NOT been answered… Here is luke 1: 1-3. Point out where the answer is. Again, i will re state the question.

1. Did the Children of Israel, during the time of Jesus Christ, know that he was born from a virgin.

My question arose from a couple of things.

1. Why didnt the Children of Israel kill Mary for committing fornication (baby no marriage) ANSWER: “SHE was married to Jospeh”
2. If she was MARRIED TO JOSEPH then how did they know she was a virgin?

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a narration of the things that have been accomplished among us; 2 According as they have delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word: 3 It seemed good to me also, having diligently attained to all things from the beginning, to write to thee in order, most excellent Theophilus

 

[JimG]

Your original question was: If Mary was not married when she gave birth to Jesus, then why didn’t the people kill her?

The answer was: She *was married * when she gave birth to Jesus!

But then you asked a further question: How did people know she was a virgin?

First, how was that anyone else’s business at the time of Jesus birth?

It’s not the sort of question one normally asks at a new birth. “Cute baby. Was the mother a virgin?”

Secondly, Mary knew. And Joseph knew. And Luke knew, when he wrote his gospel. Most likely Mary told him.

Is he required to explain his sources to you as if it were backyard gossip?

Apparently the only reason you keep asking is because you think that the Quran has a better explanation because it includes an apocryphal story of baby Jesus talking.

 

[Faith101]

Your original question was: If Mary was not m

arried when she gave birth to Jesus, then why didn’t the people kill her?

The answer was: She *was married * when she gave birth to Jesus!

But then you asked a further question: How did people know she was a virgin?

First, how was that anyone else’s business at the time of Jesus birth?

It’s not the sort of question one normally asks at a new birth. “Cute baby. Was the mother a virgin?”

Jesus Christ peace be upon him wasnt just any baby. You keep saying “Virgin Mary” why do you say that, if its none of you business?

Secondly, Mary knew. And Joseph knew. And Luke knew, when he wrote his gospel. Most likely Mary told him.

ok. So NO BODY except Mary and Joseph knew that Jesus was a baby born from a virgin UNTIL Jesus left the earth?

Is he required to explain his sources to you as if it were backyard gossip?

I’m kinda used to that. In normal every day life…we are asked “where are your sources” I thought the same would apply to Luke. In either case, it doesnt matter to me.

Apparently the only reason you keep asking is because you think that the Quran has a better explanation because it includes an apocryphal story of baby Jesus talking.

The Quran has a better explanation. And the hole that you guys just cant seem to plug without saying something like “its none of their business” “does luke have to tell you how he knew?” is not even present in the Quran.

Thank you for all those who replied…administrators can close the thread if they like now.

 

[cestusdei]

Hmm…what are the sources of the Quran? Muhammed certainly wasn’t around. Where did he get his info? Heretical Christian sects perhaps? Talking to an angel? What sources do we have for that? Only Muhammed himself. I have no reason to believe him.

 

[cyprian]

Faith101:

You are making it seem like i’m asking for some impossible roster with a timetable. I’m not, and you know it. The question is clear, the answer provided is not.

The Quran provides the answer to the so called “mystery”…which i think is kind of interesting, being that we are told so many times that it was copied from the Bible.

thanks again

we can question anything that comes down the pike but in the end the one thing that will remain standing is the catholic church. As for modern theology and disputations and the like…the catholic church teaches all scripture is the inspired word of God, end of story. Your tongue in cheek diatribe, beating around the bush is rather silly. Every devout jewish girl at that time knew that the messiah would be born of a virgin, and so they all hoped it would be one of them. It was hidden from the world in a sense that he came to us not as a
king would normally appear but as an innocent, vulnerable, helpless child. What does it matter whether he spoke as an infant or not…He is God. Mary was a virgin. I invite you to come and experience the living God, Jesus Christ in His church.

Peace and Love

 

[flameburns623]

Here’s the best answer I can offer to what I think I understand to be your question:

1. At the time of the conception of Jesus, Mary was bethrothed (engaged) to Joseph. Jewish engagements were rather long affairs, often arranged when one or both of the prospective partners were quite young. Engagements were, for all intents and purposes, almost synonymous with marriage itself, except that no physical consumation of the marriage was supposed to take place prior to the marriage ceremony. It was a binding committment to marry UNLESS one of the partners had a serious reason to break the engagement.
2. It was not unheard of for engaged partners to become impatient and to ‘consumate’ their union prematurely. Such an act would NOT, so far as I understand it, constitute adultery. Therefore there would be no obligation to stone either party; the marriage would simply be formalised post-haste, particularly if the girl had been impregnated. Stoning was only invoked when a married or an engaged person was caught in flagrante delicto with someone other than their spouse or their intended. Even then there were high standards for proof of adultery.

Normally, the bedding from the nuptial bed was displayed publicly the day following the consummation of the marriage–the bedding would carry ‘evidence’ that the girl had been a virgin when the marriage was consummated. Obviously, when a bethrothed couple engaged in marital conduct prematurely, no such ‘evidence’ would be available on the night of the nuptials and in such situations the display of the bedding would have to be waived. There are some rather extensive provisions for all of this in the Levitical laws.

1. After a three-month visit to her cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:39-56), Mary informed Joseph that she was with child–see Matthew 1:18-19. It is likely that by this time, several of Mary’s family members would have already realised Mary’s situation–Elisabeth knew it by revelation of the Holy Ghost upon first view of Mary (see Luke 1:43) At this point, as the aggrieved party, Joseph had several options under the Mosaic Law: he could denounce Mary publicly, which would lead to her death by stoning. OR he could put her away ‘privily’ , which would save her from death by stoning but not obligate him to marry her. Mary would have lived her life under a cloud and likely have been unmarriageable for the rest of her days, being known as an adultress. His final option was to accept the situation and marry his bethrothed despite her condition. By direction of an angel of God, Joseph did the last.
2. We KNOW from the text that at least three persons knew something of the miraculous conception of Jesus: Mary, Joseph, and Elisabeth. Other family members probably also knew–Mary’s parents, Elisabeth’s husband, etcetera. At least some of these people survived well beyond Christ’s death and resurrection–specifically, Mary herself. Who might have corroborated Mary’s story and when, the Gospel writers do not tell us. Keep in mind that the human authors of the Gospels were not journalists, biographers, nor historians and that they did not write according to modern standards for newspaper journalism, contemporary biography or modern history. They wrote as the Holy Spirit prompted them, with the goal of highlighting specific aspects of Christ’s ministry, His character, and/or His teaching.

The issue of whether or not Mary had other children is highly debated in Christian circles, btw, but doesn’t seem very central to what I think you’re asking–unless of course, Joseph and Mary consumated their marriage after the birth of Jesus AND saved the bedding from that consumation of evidence of Mary’s virtue. (A great deal of medieval speculation centered around the idea that Mary the Ever-Virgin would have been able to miraculously give birth to Jesus without violating her virginity. Since I personally don’t credit the much-older notion that Mary was Ever-Virgin, I am disinclined to believe the idea that she remained virginal after Christ’s birth).

I do think it’s odd that you want to validate the Gospel accounts of the miraculous conception of Christ by relying on the Qur’an, written centuries later and almost certainly reliant for it’s information upon fragmentary information derived from Christian heretics. This is the point everyone keeps trying to drive home to you: the Gospels were written by people who lived in the period when these events took place. The writers of the Gospels were able to speak to people who knew what had happened. At least two of the Gospel writers–Matthew and John–were Apostles who had known Jesus personally. Mark and Luke were associates of Apostles and presumably of many of Jesus’ early disciples.

 

[Pani_Rose]

Here are some of the Scriptural proheycies concerning the birth of Christ

***Ancestors:
*
1- The “seed of a woman”: Genesis 3:15… Galatians 4:4.Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
*- ***Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)

 **    2- Descendent of Abraham:** Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.*- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)

• Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, “Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.” (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

---

3- Descendent of Isaac: **Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.    *- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him." 
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)*

 **    4- Descendent of Jacob: **Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.    *- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. 
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2) *

 **    5-- From the Tribe of Judah:** Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.    *- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. 
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3) *

 **    6- Hair of the Throne of David: **Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.    *- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)

• Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6) *
  
  Birth and Childhood:
  
  ** 7- Born in Bethlehem: **Micah 5:2… Matthew 2:1… Luke 2:4-7. *- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
• Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)*
  
  ** * 8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18… Luke 1:26-35.*******- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. ***
  • Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35) *
  ** 9- Time of his birth: **Daniel 9:25… Luke 2:1: **
  *- ****Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven “sevens” and sixty two “sevens.” It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
• Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7) *
  - Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

CON"T

 

[Pani_Rose]

Here is the *Protoevangelium of St. James the Apostle *written by St. James given in the year 125 A.D., it tells us of the life of the Holy Family, St. Ann and St Joachim - Mary’s family and her birth, but it also tells more of the history Conception and Birth of Christ.
kensmen.com/catholic/protoevangelium.html

The New Testament of the Bible is the life of Christ. One must delve into the Old Testament to understand the New Testament and vice versa. The Early Church Council’s decided which books were to placed in the Bible - as is stated by John, But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV] So, like the Protoevangelium which was not included in the Scriptures is still relevant, it gives us a clearer picture of the life of Mary from a child, her time in the temple, and her life with Joseph, the conception of Christ, his birth, and so forth.

The Protoevangelium is expecially used they the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox as teachings for the Church. I know it is also used and recognized by the Roman Catholics but since I am Eastern Catholic I can not speak to that. Hope it helps

 

[allhers]

Your original question was answered, if you have further questions, start another thread (that seems to be your answer to anyone on here that asked you a question.) so they can be dealth with one at a time

 

[Faith101]

flameburns623:

Here’s the best answer I can offer to what I think I understand to be your question:

1. At the time of the conception of Jesus, Mary was bethrothed (engaged) to Joseph. Jewish engagements were rather long affairs, often arranged when one or both of the prospective partners were quite young. Engagements were, for all intents and purposes, almost synonymous with marriage itself, except that no physical consumation of the marriage was supposed to take place prior to the marriage ceremony. It was a binding committment to marry UNLESS one of the partners had a serious reason to break the engagement.
2. It was not unheard of for engaged partners to become impatient and to ‘consumate’ their union prematurely. Such an act would NOT, so far as I understand it, constitute adultery. Therefore there would be no obligation to stone either party; the marriage would simply be formalised post-haste, particularly if the girl had been impregnated. Stoning was only invoked when a married or an engaged person was caught in flagrante delicto with someone other than their spouse or their intended. Even then there were high standards for proof of adultery.

Normally, the bedding from the nuptial bed was displayed publicly the day following the consummation of the marriage–the bedding would carry ‘evidence’ that the girl had been a virgin when the marriage was consummated. Obviously, when a bethrothed couple engaged in marital conduct prematurely, no such ‘evidence’ would be available on the night of the nuptials and in such situations the display of the bedding would have to be waived. There are some rather extensive provisions for all of this in the Levitical laws.

1. After a three-month visit to her cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:39-56), Mary informed Joseph that she was with child–see Matthew 1:18-19. It is likely that by this time, several of Mary’s family members would have already realised Mary’s situation–Elisabeth knew it by revelation of the Holy Ghost upon first view of Mary (see Luke 1:43) At this point, as the aggrieved party, Joseph had several options under the Mosaic Law: he could denounce Mary publicly, which would lead to her death by stoning. OR he could put her away ‘privily’ , which would save her from death by stoning but not obligate him to marry her. Mary would have lived her life under a cloud and likely have been unmarriageable for the rest of her days, being known as an adultress. His final option was to accept the situation and marry his bethrothed despite her condition. By direction of an angel of God, Joseph did the last.
2. We KNOW from the text that at least three persons knew something of the miraculous conception of Jesus: Mary, Joseph, and Elisabeth. Other family members probably also knew–Mary’s parents, Elisabeth’s husband, etcetera. At least some of these people survived well beyond Christ’s death and resurrection–specifically, Mary herself. Who might have corroborated Mary’s story and when, the Gospel writers do not tell us. Keep in mind that the human authors of the Gospels were not journalists, biographers, nor historians and that they did not write according to modern standards for newspaper journalism, contemporary biography or modern history. They wrote as the Holy Spirit prompted them, with the goal of highlighting specific aspects of Christ’s ministry, His character, and/or His teaching.

The issue of whether or not Mary had other children is highly debated in Christian circles, btw, but doesn’t seem very central to what I think you’re asking–unless of course, Joseph and Mary consumated their marriage after the birth of Jesus AND saved the bedding from that consumation of evidence of Mary’s virtue. (A great deal of medieval speculation centered around the idea that Mary the Ever-Virgin would have been able to miraculously give birth to Jesus without violating her virginity. Since I personally don’t credit the much-older notion that Mary was Ever-Virgin, I am disinclined to believe the idea that she remained virginal after Christ’s birth).

Flameburns623

Thank you for your explanation, it cleared up a lot of things. I was under the impression that the miracle was known by the Children of Israel *during * the ministry of Jesus Christ peace be upon him. From your explanation, it seems that according to your beliefs, it was not.