Mary and Original Sin

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Orion:
The oringal question raised was why we couldn’t we all be born free from OS or, in other words, born with the graces Mary recieved.

The answers given were because we have free will. It follows (at least for me) that Mary didn’t have free will (based on these answers alone). I struggle, if you can’t tell, with the so called “free will defense” being used.
I don’t have a lot to contribute to the original question of this thread, but the above at least isn’t quite correct logic. It’s known as “converting the conditional” and examples can be found of what’s going all over the web (one is here: maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/faculty/gduffy/logfallacy/sld017.htm)

Basically, you can’t necessarily say Mary had no free will because she had no sin - because we have free will and sin doesn’t mean the only possibility that can exist without sin is no free will. God has no sin - does he have no free will? Jesus?

Anyways, hope that helps a little!
 
Mary’s immaculate conception was actually a grace that God granted her, that we will recieve when we die. She just kind of got an “advance on her allowence,” as it were.

God did this because someone stained by sin would not be worthy to carry the precious Jesus. But we all will be sinless once we die and are cleansed in purgatory.

Good luck on your search for the truth! I hope we will be welcoming you into the Church one day!
mindy
 
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Orion:
Tantum ergo…

Fair enough on your response… I am familar with the theology.

My question is why is that the ONLY way? God is omnipotent… Limiting an omnipotent God seems inconsitent to me.

God could have forgiven A&E… that would have been pretty cool. Forgive them and teach them.

Side Note: If death entered the world thru A&E’s sin… what was the tree of life there for? Seems that they wouldn’t live forever unless they ate from the tree of life…which they didn’t. Death might not be the result of Sin.
God could have done things in any way he wished, but he chose the way he did because they work the best.
 
Even though this isn’t a thread I started…or my original quesiton…I do appreciate all the replies to my remarks.
 
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alh5184:
I have two questions:
  1. If God could keep Mary from original sin, why could He not keep all of us from original sin?
  2. Is our soul from God? And if it is from God how can it come from Him stained with Sin?
I guess that’s actually three questions. I am not asking these to offend the Catholic faith, but they are some questions I have thought about recently. I am currently considering converting to the Catholic Faith, so I am not anti-catholic in the least. However I was raised in a non-Catholic church that does not believe in original sin, so this is something that is very difficult for me to reconcile. How could God create something that is not completly good? If you have any good articles to read on either Mary or Original Sin I will be happy to read those. I thank you in advance for all your thoughts on the matter.

In Him,

ALH

:blessyou:
Actually only Jesus was conceived without original sin, everyone else is a sinner. Read Romans 3:23!
 
John 17 3:
Actually only Jesus was conceived without original sin, everyone else is a sinner. Read Romans 3:23!
this is from a simple tract on this site’s homepage:
find it here catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies to my original questions.
  1. If God could keep Mary from original sin, why could He not keep all of us from original sin?
  1. Is our soul from God? And if it is from God how can it come from Him stained with Sin?
Through further study I have come to understand this much better. First, original sin, does not mean we are evil, but simply born without certain graces, which has been expressed on this sight.

Baptism give us those graces. God simply gave Mary thoses graces at conception (consider the pit analogy). That in no way took away her free will. God choose to keep her from original sin, because she would bear his Son, who is God Himself.

The more I study Mary the more amazed I am on how consistant the Catholic teaching is on her. Tim Staples has a great tape set on her that I am currently listening to, I highly recommend it.

Once again, thanks for all your responses. And thanks to Orion for keeping the thread on topic.

In Him,
ALH
 
Same question I posted above…

Did Mary have Free Will?

It would see that being born “Full of Grace” is more than a tremendous gift.

Can Mary posess free will and be free from Original Sin? It would seem not.
Why?
Adam and Eve had no original sin and had free will.
 
I have two questions:
  1. If God could keep Mary from original sin, why could He not keep all of us from original sin?
  2. Is our soul from God? And if it is from God how can it come from Him stained with Sin?
I guess that’s actually three questions. I am not asking these to offend the Catholic faith, but they are some questions I have thought about recently. I am currently considering converting to the Catholic Faith, so I am not anti-catholic in the least. However I was raised in a non-Catholic church that does not believe in original sin, so this is something that is very difficult for me to reconcile. How could God create something that is not completly good? If you have any good articles to read on either Mary or Original Sin I will be happy to read those. I thank you in advance for all your thoughts on the matter.

In Him,

ALH

:blessyou:
Hi ALH,

The questions asked are very good ones, here’s my attempted contribution. .

Adam and Eve, were created in God’s image and likeness. As such they were partakers of the Divine nature. In other words they reflected God’s own nature back to him. This nature was, is and will always be ‘without sin’.

When Adam sinned he then ceased to partake of the Divine nature and suffered corruption. So he assumed a sinful nature surplanting the Divine nature that he once partook of.

Being saved from original sin is to be saved from Adam’s sin. The second Adam does precisely that. Christians are new creations and are once again freed to partake of the Divine nature. They are not bound to the old nature - if they sin it is because they choose to. After they sin they have additional problems of which we are all aware to various degrees.

Being redeemed in Christ and being set free is one thing, it is another thing to appropriate that freedom. Failure to appropriate that freedom *in Christ *is not to be confused with being in Adam. Mary appropriated that freedom to the fullest extent and maintained it by trust and obedience in God. Hence I am able to say that she was free from original sin. It makes perfect sense.
  1. God can keep us from falling. . . this is the good news.
  2. All life (souls included) are from God, the soul comes stained from Adam not God. Otherwise God would be the author of evil.
There is a parallel tread about Mary where the same issues are surfacing . . .

blessings
 
If Mary was without sin, why don’t we find anyone in the scriptures including Jesus Who never taught such a thing? Remember He knew her best.
Secondly, no writer of the letters in the NT ever make such a claim. It actually teaches that all men are sinners because of Adam.
Thirdly, if i’m not mistaken there were a number of church fathers who thought she had sinned.

Fourth, she died. If she died then that means she was a sinner since the wages of sin is death.
 
alh5184;597347]Thanks everyone for your replies to my original questions.
Through further study I have come to understand this much better. First, original sin, does not mean we are evil, but simply born without certain graces, which has been expressed on this sight.
This is not what the scriptures teach. Read Romans 5:12-16. Also look at chapter 6 verse 23.
Baptism give us those graces.
Would you happen to have some scrupture for this?
God simply gave Mary thoses graces at conception (consider the pit analogy). That in no way took away her free will. God choose to keep her from original sin, because she would bear his Son, who is God Himself.
There is specualtion for the mere fact the scriptures never say this about her.
The more I study Mary the more amazed I am on how consistant the Catholic teaching is on her. Tim Staples has a great tape set on her that I am currently listening to, I highly recommend it.
Let me encourage you to study the scriptures. Look up all references to Mary and you never find the idea that she was kept from sin.
Once again, thanks for all your responses. And thanks to Orion for keeping the thread on topic.

In Him,
ALH
 
If Mary was without sin, why don’t we find anyone in the scriptures including Jesus Who never taught such a thing? Remember He knew her best.
Secondly, no writer of the letters in the NT ever make such a claim. It actually teaches that all men are sinners because of Adam.
Thirdly, if i’m not mistaken there were a number of church fathers who thought she had sinned.

Fourth, she died. If she died then that means she was a sinner since the wages of sin is death.
Jesus died.
Did he sin?
No. So Death can be for another reason.
Did Mary die?
Maybe and the reason might be because she joined herself perfectly to the our salvation.
We don’t know. She seems to have been buried.The church has never defined if she died or not.
This is just my own thoughts on this not doctrine.
Jesus is God and he died.
Mary is not God. Did she die? Don’t know but my guess is yes.
 
richwmiller;2631990]Jesus died.
Jesus died because He willingly laid down His life for us.
Did he sin?
No He did not.However because He took on all our sins and was punished in our place for them.
No. So Death can be for another reason.
Did Mary die?
Maybe and the reason might be because she joined herself perfectly to the our salvation.
We have no reason to think she did not die. What do you mean by “she joined herself perfectly to the our salvation”?
We don’t know. She seems to have been buried.The church has never defined if she died or not.
This is just my own thoughts on this not doctrine.
But it does claim that even though it does not know it does claim she was assumned into heaven even though there is no evidence for it.
Jesus is God and he died.
There were reasons why Christ died and they are not the same as our dying. Since all men are sinners, all die.
Mary is not God. Did she die? Don’t know but my guess is yes.
 
Having read some of the responses I would very much like to say what happened to original sin.

The legal requirement - the death sentence of original sin, was met and satisfied in the death of Christ on the cross. It (dead original sin figuratively speaking) was THEN buried in the grave where Christ was laid but it was never allowed to be raised from the dead.

Now what does it take to kill original sin? What more do you want God to give and do than to send His own Son to suffer, die, be buried and be raised from the dead to recreate those who are saved?

Is the Gospel message that Christ died for our sin but was helpless to deal with original sin? May it never be!

Please read Romans 6:1-4 if you still doubt that Christians are in Christ and not in Adam.

So back to Mary who witnessed all the events concerning her Son.

blessings
 
I appreciate all the responses…

But I fear we’ve gone full circle…

The oringal question raised was why we couldn’t we all be born free from OS or, in other words, born with the graces Mary recieved.
We could have been, but God chose for it not to be that way. He created us all, therefore…we are created as he chose us to be. We are not fulfilling the same mission that Mary was given.

Is it not possible for God to do ANYTHING??
…he could do it for all… why didn’t He?
At the risk of sounding “flip”…maybe he didn’t want to. Besides, did He not create Adam and Eve, who sinned against Him, thereby creating “Original Sin”…and did he not later send His Son for our salvation?

For the precise answer to your question, you will have to ask Him.
 
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