Mary and other things

  • Thread starter Thread starter t68ware
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
t68ware said:
I need some advice. I have been Catholic almost 2 years now, and I am wondering if certain things, like devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary are necessary. I have a hard time accepting those devotionals, for they seem contrived by man, and I really have a hard time wrapping my heart around them. Also, I am reading some prayers to Mary and it really seems like worship, not adoration. The way some of my Catholic brothers and sisters talk about Mary, one would think she is a god. Coming from over 35 years of being Protestant, the old opinions I had are once again coming up.
Click to expand...
Although one it is not requisite to practice Catholic Devotions, Pope Paul VI states that “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship” (Marialis Cultus*, 56).

Also, no devotional is contrived by man. I had this same worry; however, after some investigation, I was surprised to find that our devotion is in fact rooted in scripture. For example, her title as “blessed” comes from Luke 1:48.

Furthermore, as far as Mary’s other titles are concerned, they all make logical sense. She is “The Gate of Heaven”, considering she is a co-redemptrix. Moreover, she is “The Ark of the Covenant”, considering that she bore the law and the bread from heaven incarnate in her womb (cf. Ex. 16:4; Heb. 9:4; Jn 6:51). Last, she is the “Queen of Heaven”, considering Revelation chapter 12. None of these should make one think she is a god.

In regard to prayers, I cannot really comment because I do not know the specific prayers with which you are discomforted. I really hope some of this information helps, though. I was raised Catholic; so, I do not know what it is like to convert. However, I can imagine that it is complete culture shock.

*Marialis Cultus, i.e. Marian Worship
 
I don’t think non-Catholics grasp the full spectrum of Catholic worship. There is, for example, the practice of 24/7 Eucharistic Adoration. That means there is always somebody in town adoring Christ in the Eucharist. Try getting up at 5:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning in a snowstorm to go adore Christ as the Bread of Life and tell me Catholics “worship” Mary. Now THAT’S worship. Sure, you’ve got Sunday services and maybe Wednesday night worship. How about daily services? Most parishes have daily Mass, thank God. And the greatest evidence of adoring the Holy Trinity, “hearing and obeying,” is volunteering at the Friday night fish fry during Lent…
 
(edited)

Purely from the New Testament:

[16] Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. (St. James 5)

Wait a minute? Why should we pray for one another? Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient for us? But we’re required to pray for others that we might be saved? And what does it mean by “the continual prayer of a just man availeth much?” So a just man can pray for others? Okay, but not a saint because… well because saints are not alive, right?

*[26] And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? [27] He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err. * (St. Mark 12)

God is the God of the living, not the dead? But they don’t pray for us here on Earth, that’s superstition, right?

[4] And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apocalypse 8)

[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the* souls of them that were slain for the word of God,** and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up. * (Apocalypse 6)

What’s this? Prayers of the saints, Souls of the Just in Heaven? In White robes waiting for their brethren on Earth? There’s such a thing as "communion of Saints? But that’s just more Catholic “superstition,” right?

[22] But you are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, [23] And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12)

The “spirits of the just made perfect?” That sounds like a Catholic saint, but…?

So we see the following in the New Testament: 1) We are to pray for one other. 2) God is the God of the living, not of the dead. 3) The prayer of a just man “availeth much.” 4) Saints prayers rise to God in Heaven. 5) The souls of the just are before God waiting for their brothers. 6) The Church consists of Firstborn Jesus, Mediator of the New Testament, the living God, the angels and the “spirits of the just made perfect” – as well as us.

Do you think the living saints care any less for those on Earth, then do the angels, “who rejoice when a sinner is saved?” So these souls in Heaven are “the just made perfect” would you think their prayers would “availeth much” or not?

Our Lady, the Mother of Christ, is the greatest saint. Her prayers “availeth” much more than the prayers of any other saint. Or do you think that, once our brothers in Christ arrive in Heaven, they no longer care about the struggles of those of us still on Earth?

Personally I don’t saints have the “I got mine” mentality.
 
djrakowski said:
Do you pray for friends, family and members of your church? Have you ever asked such people to pray for you - that is, to intercede on your behalf?

If there’s literally only one mediator, then what are we to make of this?

[BIBLEDRB]James 5:16[/BIBLEDRB]

And why did you say “all of our praise and worship belongs to him?” You can’t mean that in a slavishly literal sense, or else you’d never offer anyone praise for a job well done… For example, a great sermon preached by your pastor, or an exemplary lesson taught by a Bible study leader.

And certainly Catholics would agree with you that there’s only one worthy of worship, and that is Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Is there something about asking someone to intercede for us that makes you think we’re worshipping the intercessor? I frequently ask my Christian friends to pray for me quite frequently, and the thought of worshipping those friends never enters my mind.

Or is your objection that Mary and the other people we call saints are dead? Not so, saith scripture:

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 12:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
Click to expand...
I should have read on.
 
(Edited)

Not if you understand Catholic doctrine and what Catholics mean by Mediatrix.

tldm.org/news5/mediatrix1.htm

Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. No offense, but Evangelical Protestants don’t even understand how we use the term “graces” here.

You’ll note that Catholics teach, as do Protestants, that:

"The office of mediator belongs fully only to Jesus, the Man‑God, Who alone could reconcile us with God by offering Him, on behalf of men, the infinite sacrifice of the Cross, which is perpetuated in Holy Mass. He alone, as Head of mankind, could merit for us in justice the grace of salvation and apply it to those who do not reject His saving action. It is as man that He is mediator, but as a Man in Whom humanity is united hypostatically to the Word and endowed with the fullness of grace, the grace of Headship, which overflows on men. As St. Paul puts it: ‘For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave Himself for a redemption for all, a testimony in due times’ (I Tim. ii, 56). (Fr. Reginald Garrigou‑Lagrange, O.P)

*"But, St. Thomas adds: 'there is no reason why there should not be, after Christ, other secondary mediators between God and men, who co‑operate in uniting them in a ministerial and dispositive manner.’ Such mediators dispose men for the action of the principal Mediator, or transmit it, but always in dependence on His merits.” * (See above)

And this is where we differ. But, since most Protestants do not understand or acknowledge the differences between actual grace and sanctifying grace anyhow, this is all really moot. Evangelical Protestants don’t even really believe in Sacraments, so where would that leave actual grace in their scheme of things?

So once you understand what Catholics actually teach (as opposed to what Evangelical Protestants teach they teach) you would find that we are in agreement with your verse in I Timothy – we just disagree on about everything else concerning the methods of justification.
 
Romans_Road said:
No, it is standing up for the authority of Scripture and bad teaching.

So, is the Bible wrong when it said there was one mediator?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that Mary has the title of Mediatrix.
Click to expand...
Question: Who are you to judge what is bad teaching? How do you know it is bad teaching in the first place?

God is limitless, is it not? He can require mediators, others to intercede…look at Job 42:

7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.

Look at verse 10…see what happens when you pray for others…you reward is two fold.
 
I’m no scripture expert but i’m led to believe the bible should be read in context; in context of the section being read and in context with the totality of the Bible so I’m not sure if Quoting and sticking one verse and ignoring loads seems odd particulary if one comes from a tradition that focuses purely on the Bible.

So, is the Bible wrong when it said there was one mediator? I would suggest that the questioner follow what he is asking everybody else to do and that is are all the other verses quoted to you wrong or how would you interpret them ?
 
The catechism says the following

CII. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” 515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” 516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary. 517 III.
 
thirddec said:
I’m no scripture expert but i’m led to believe the bible should be read in context; in context of the section being read and in context with the totality of the Bible so I’m not sure if Quoting and sticking one verse and ignoring loads seems odd particulary if one comes from a tradition that focuses purely on the Bible.

So, is the Bible wrong when it said there was one mediator? I would suggest that the questioner follow what he is asking everybody else to do and that is are all the other verses quoted to you wrong or how would you interpret them ?
Click to expand...
There are not “loads” of other verses that even suggests that Mary is a Mediatrixx like the Catechism says.
 
linatony said:
The catechism says the following

CII. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” 515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” 516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary. 517 III.
Click to expand...
It looks like worship. Kneeling down before her statue and praying to her is worship and violates the Commandments.
 
Romans_Road said:
There are not “loads” of other verses that even suggests that Mary is a Mediatrixx like the Catechism says.
Click to expand...
True but there are enough; but also there are plenty to suggest that having others pray for us either people alive or the saints in heaven is a good thing. Just read the thread. 🙂
 
Before we ask a non-Catholic to make definitions, let’s be clear on our own definitions.

Worship, adoration, praise, latria (Greek: λατρεια): acts of religious devotion due to God alone.
Veneration, honor, dulia (Greek: δουλεία): the special act of honoring a saint. Veneration is often shown outwardly by respectfully bowing or making the sign of the cross before a saint’s icon, relics, or statue. These items may also be kissed.

The special veneration given to the Blessed Virgin Mary is known as hyperdulia. Thus it is clearly classed with dulia or veneration, and not with latria or worship.
 
Elizium23 said:
Before we ask a non-Catholic to make definitions, let’s be clear on our own definitions.

Worship, adoration, praise, latria (Greek: λατρεια): acts of religious devotion due to God alone.
Veneration, honor, dulia (Greek: δουλεία): the special act of honoring a saint. Veneration is often shown outwardly by respectfully bowing or making the sign of the cross before a saint’s icon, relics, or statue. These items may also be kissed.

The special veneration given to the Blessed Virgin Mary is known as hyperdulia. Thus it is clearly classed with dulia or veneration, and not with latria or worship.
Click to expand...
Thank you much for this distinction. I could not recall the terminology
Remember also look at 2,000 years of scripture interpretation.
 
No more wrong that when it says the angel of the Lord said the Blessed Virgin is full of grace.

As you know from Holy Writ, when angels speak, they use few words. They don’t need many, because what they say is always true.

The Blessed Virgin is the true ark of the covenant, she bore the living Word of God, who as St. Paul teaches us, speaks louder and saves more effectively than the stones upon which the commandments were written ever did. But, look at the glory accorded to those tablets, and that ark. A temple was built, and a city grew around it, for their honor. What honor fitting for the living ark?

Isiah foretold her coming, as did Jeremiah. King David sung of her, in Psalm 45.

Catholics cannot utter any greater prayer than Holy Writ itself: the inspired word of God.

Scripture teaches man how to pray. God Himself teaches man to honor the Mother of God.
 
Romans_Road said:
The Bible is very clear that there is one mediator, Jesus. Would you disagree? Is the Bible wrong? was Paul lying?
Click to expand...
No Paul wasn’t ‘lying’ as you put it.

Paul says that “there is one mediator betwen God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1Tim 2:5). However the “one” referred to here (eis) means ‘first’ and not ‘only’.

As I said in my original post - read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 969) - Is it ‘lying’?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top