Mary and Predestination

[philipmarie]

Through the Immaculate Heart,

For months I’ve been struggling with the doctrine of predestination. I struggled with the dogma that God predestined some over others but, to tell the sincere truth without any scruple whatsoever of having done anything wrong, I struggled even more with the thought that maybe the Blessed Virgin does not love me. I became lukewarm in my devotion towards Her, I cried so much in the last few months that I often went out of breath. Yet at the same time, with all these doubts regarding Her, I studied and with Her help I came to build alot of knowledge about Her. I am always thinking how on earth people can be so stupid/rash/presumptous as to even refuse to learn about Her when one could just pray to Her with a sincere intention, read books about Her and theology and do other things just as long he did them to find knowledge about Her.

Having said all that, all this sadness made me want to leave the Church so as of this day, I’m going to become a Baptist. No wait! It’s not true! I would never become a Baptist especially with all their hatred for the Blessed Virgin which they have.

Really, having bought for Christmas The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza which has cleared alot of misconceptions about grace and predestination so in the next post, I’m going to show what the Church teaches about predestination and what I have think of Mary Immaculate regarding this doctrine.

 

[kepha1]

John Salza is a good resource for clearing up any confusion about predestination. A summary can be found here.

There are two kinds of predestination: to grace (becoming a Christian) and to glory (persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will). The Angel Gabriel, delivering God’s word’s, said, “Hail Mary, full of grace…” Not "Hail Mary, poof! you are now full of grace. " She was always full of grace. She was predestined by God.

Try a little contemplation the next time you recieve Holy Communion. Imagine yourself being the manger, or sitting on Mary’s lap as she nurtures you to be like Jesus. This could lead the kind of experiential closeness in the concrete that you long for, instead of over-intellectualizing something as intimate as our relationship with Jesus as guided by smeone who knows Him better than anyone else.

I look forward to your thoughts about Mary and predestination.

 

[philipmarie]

This is such a delicate subject but, here I go. I don’t think I’ll mention many sources on predestination because what I’m going to feebly represent is authentic Church teaching on predestination.

First, we should know that if we are to do good, we need supernatural help; in other words we need God’s help and and God helps souls by grace. This is a dogma of the faith, as the Council of trent shows:

*CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.* (Council of Trent, Session VI, Canons 1 and 2).

The Pelagians were condemned by the Church because they thaught the opposite of the dogma of the necassity of grace: they held that the beginning of faith and of all good begins in us and not from God.

Now there really is such a thing called Predestination. It is the doctrine that holds that God, before the creation of the world chose certain souls to be saved and to go to heaven over and above all others. He efficaciously wills that the predestined be saved and to partake in His goodness. The others who are not predestined are called either the foreknown or the reprobate. Those that are foreknown are those who, although not efficaciously willed by God to go to heaven are neverthless given grace and cooperate with it so that they go to heaven while the reprobate are those that resist God’s grace and go to hell.

It is also a truth commonly held by theologians that if a soul is more perfect than another it is because God loves him more: “Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated” (Rom 9:13 and Mal 1:2-3). ***** If a soul goes to hell or is less perfect than another, it is because God loves him less than the others. This though, is not unjust in God because we do not have a right to this grace. Also, is God had not made use of predestination than nobody would have gone definitely to heaven. He used it so that there may be at least somebody who would be able to partake in His goodness for all eternity.

If you are ever tempted to question God’s love, look at a crucifix and know that although Christ gives the grace which He obtained in unequal measures, He still died so that you may have access to all these graces. There is still love. You love your wife with your whole heart but you don’t love your brother’s wife or your neighbours wife in the same way; God loves the Blessed Virgin to infinity and She is the main partaker in His goodness (and is our biggest hope as I shall try to show).

We should not confuse God’s love for us for our love for others. We love our friends or neighbours because of the good we find in them; God loves souls because of the good which He creates in them (Summa. Part I, question 23. article 4).

It is also a fact God does not wish the damnation of a sinner nor does He will sin: He merely permits the damnation of a sinner and sin itself. There is no such thing as predestination to hell such as the Calvinists hold (an error which was also condemned by numerous Councils). He merely permits this because:

-without evil, many things which are good cannot happen so the reprobate, in a sense, are there for furthering the cause of the elect. For without persecutions, there would be no martyrs, without ignorance, no doctors and without sin and sinners, there’d be noone to convert.

 

[philipmarie]

As kepha1 said, there are two kinds of predestination: to grace and to glory. Now there are two kinds of grace as everybody should know: there is sanctifying or habitual grace and then there is actual grace.

Sanctifying or habitual grace is that grace which keeps the soul a friend of God. When we are baptized, we have sanctifying grace in our souls and if we die in this state immediately after Baptism we go to heaven immediately (sadly, the old Priest will have to take care to bury your body if you get Baptized in the middle of the desert. All that hard work of picking a shovel and digging!) If you are not Baptized, you cannot have sanctifying grace as you are still not a member of the Catholic Church (and yes, this counts for sects who the majority do not Baptize with the correct words or intention, and for those who do Baptize with the correct rite, such as Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox. Circumcision in Judaism, whether of old or of the present does not confer sanctifying grace).

Then there is actual grace which is help from God to increase your love and virtue, to do good works and acts and even to get healed from some illness. Anybody, even a Jew or a Muslim òr a pagan can recieve actual grace but in this case, actual grace isn’t there to help him to increase in love and virtue but to convert to the Catholic faith and to save him from a possible obstacle to his conversion. This was the case of the Muslim (spoken by Saint Alphonsus in his Glories of Mary) who was lying in a cave all alone and abandoned and who was slowly dying of disease. Hearing of the greatness which the Christians spoke of the Mother of God, he called upon Her promising Her that he’d become a Christian, got healed, converted and Baptized. Many other Muslims got converted with this prodigy.

Sanctifying grace aside, it happens that actual grace is also divided into two other parts: Efficacious grace and sufficient grace. Efficacious grace not only makes the soul wish to do good but it also gives him the power to do good. Sufficient grace in the meanwhile only has one effect, that of making the soul wish to do good but it does not give him the power to do good (emphasis added for those who are absent mindedly watching T.V while on CAF).

God grants to the reprobate who are not predestined to grace only sufficient grace, which they resist. Sufficient grace is called ‘sufficient’ for a reason: it is sufficient for you to will to do good without having the power to do it or doing it to go to heaven but it is not enough for you to earn so mch merit. But BEWARE! You can’t pretend that you wish to do God without even trying to do good. We are far from agreeing with Luther on ‘once saved, always saved.’

Now to speak about the Blessed Virgin and Her role in our salvation:

 

[philipmarie]

God grants to the reprobate who are not predestined to grace only sufficient grace, which they resist. Sufficient grace is called ‘sufficient’ for a reason: it is sufficient for you to will to do good without having the power to do it or doing it to go to heaven but it is not enough for you to earn so much merit. But BEWARE! You can’t pretend that you wish to do God without even trying to do good. We are far from agreeing with Luther on ‘once saved, always saved.’

Now to speak about the Blessed Virgin and Her role in our salvation:

Actually, I made an error here: sufficient grace really is sufficient to be saved but the paradox is that, although it only has one effect, that of empowering the will to do good, if you cooperate with it you will still be able to good works which are sufficient for God does not comman the impossible (and this is another dogma defined by numerous Councils, such as that of Trent).

There is also prevenient grace which leads a man to good things. For example, if a Protestant or Muslim were to hear a sermon which leads him to the Church, then he was granted prevenient grace. If Saint Therese read a book which helped her to advance in the spiritual life (even though she was always innocent*), she still recieved prevenient grace.

*When I speak of Saint Therese as being always innocent, I’m not attributing to her something which belongs o Mary Immaculate alone, of course. Saint Therese though, even though she was a sinner was still preserved from the numerous sins which for example, Mary Magdalen did.

 

[Vince1022]

T
Now there really is such a thing called Predestination. It is the doctrine that holds that God, before the creation of the world chose certain souls to be saved and to go to heaven over and above all others. He efficaciously wills that the predestined be saved and to partake in His goodness.

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches, fyi.

 

[philipmarie]

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches, fyi.

Not meaning to offend but, can you actually show proof that the Church does not teach this? For here is the proof:

We have Saint Thomas Aquinas teachings on predestination in his summa, and his philosophy was claimed by the Church as it’s own, according to the Popes especially Leo XIII. It is true that the Church lets people think whether God permits sinners to sin either because He wills to permit them to sin or that, forseeing their sins, he let them go into their perverse ways. The latter school of thought is called the Molinist view of predestination, which contradicts neverthless alot of the tradition of the Church regarding predestination. Now, the documents:

*But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. * (Council of Trent, Session VI, chapter 3).

If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema. Canon XV of Session VI of the same Council).

However, it also defines:

*If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema. * (Canon XVII).

*“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.” * (Eph 1:4)

Christ said: “Many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt 20:16) In Other words, Christ said that many are given grace but few are chosen to be totally predestinate.

And the Lord said to Moses: Go in to Pharao; for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants: that I may work these my signs in him. (Exod 10:1) When God hardened Pharoah’s heart, we don’t mean that He treated Pharoe like a puppet and forced him to harden his heart: no, we mean that God, by His just punishment did not give Pharoe the graces to repent.

And Sehon the king of Hesebon would not let us pass: because the Lord thy God had hardened his spirit, and fixed his heart, that he might be delivered into thy hands, as now thou seest. (Deut 2:30).

 

[elvisman]

First of all, we must remember that God wills the salvation of ALL (1 Tim. 2:4). However, this doesn’t mean that ALL L will be saved. We ALL need to cooperate with God’s grace – those who don’t are lost. 1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate with his grace - plain and simple. Simply believing in Christ makes you no better than the demons who also believe James 2:19. We MUST cooperate with God in order to be saved

The CCC states:
600** *“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396 ***

Whereas God may predestine some for salvation and preordains some incidents – he does NOT predestine others for eternal damnation nor does he preordain everything. We have a free will.

This Calvinist error turns God into a monster who creates some for hell for his own pleasure, which makes God the author of evil – which he cannot be.

The language used in the Bible about predestination and God’sw foreknowledge deals largely with the fact that God is eternal and sees everything simultaneously. Since he is not subject to time, he knows ALL of our choices. He cannot foreknow anything because that would imply that he is not eternal.

Hope that helps.

 

[philipmarie]

“Cannot I do with you, as this potter, O house of Israel, saith the Lord? behold as clay is in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.” (Jer 18:6) Efficacious grace isn’t necessailly given to him who prepares for it (although if such a person keeps on praying, he really will recieve it in the end).

Know though that God does not make the law impossible to follow, because if God had made the law impossible to follow, then it would have been useless for Him to tell us to repent and to do good works if they were so impossible.

 

[philipmarie]

First of all, we must remember that God wills the salvation of ALL (1 Tim. 2:4). However, this doesn’t mean that ALL L will be saved. We ALL need to cooperate with God’s grace – those who don’t are lost. 1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate** with his grace - plain and simple. Simply believing in Christ makes you no better than the demons who also believe James 2:19. We MUST** cooperate with God in order to be saved

The CCC states:
600** *“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396 ***

Whereas God may predestine some for salvation and preordains some incidents – he does NOT predestine others for eternal damnation nor does he preordain everything. We have a free will.

This Calvinist error turns God into a monster who creates some for hell for his own pleasure, which makes God the author of evil – which he cannot be.

The language used in the Bible about predestination and God’sw foreknowledge deals largely with the fact that God is eternal and sees everything simultaneously. Since he is not subject to time, he knows ALL of our choices. He cannot foreknow anything because that would imply that he is not eternal.

Hope that helps.

Truly does.

 

[Vince1022]

Not meaning to offend but, can you actually show proof that the Church does not teach this? For here is the proof:

We have Saint Thomas Aquinas teachings on predestination in his summa, and his philosophy was claimed by the Church as it’s own, according to the Popes especially Leo XIII. It is true that the Church lets people think whether God permits sinners to sin either because He wills to permit them to sin or that, forseeing their sins, he let them go into their perverse ways. The latter school of thought is called the Molinist view of predestination, which contradicts neverthless alot of the tradition of the Church regarding predestination. Now, the documents:.

Thomas Aquinas, as with all Church Fathers, and Doctors, etc., taught many things. And, of course the Council of Trent is an authority. But the Church did not stop teaching with the Council of Trent, or with any of the Church Fathers, Doctors, etc.

Where does the Church teach, today, about predestination? Is there anything in the Catechism? Only in paragraph 600. Does that cohere with your understanding of predestination?

What does the Pope, or your Bishop, teach about predestination?

 

[philipmarie]

First, what the Bishops and Priests teach about Predestination is exactly what the Church has always thaught for these thousand years. If they thaught something diffirent, they would be called heretics.

Secondly, if a doctrine ha sbeen defined or thaught by the Magisterium for a thousand years, nobody, not even the Church has a right to change it. This is what Pius II’s Papal Bull Excerabilis defined, that no future Council may teach or reform a doctrine which has already been defined and that no Pope can do the same thing either.

Of course, in all sincerity you may hold the Molinist view that God predestines people and reporobates them according to their foreseen merits and demerits but this will give you a very imperfect understanding of grace and salvation. Christ died for all and not only for those whom He knew were going to co-operate with His grace.

But anyway, my thoughts regarding Mary and Predestination:

 

[philipmarie]

We have seen that God chooses to save some over others and that not all recieve the same grace. it also doesn’t mean that because you are so very holy and humble (whether you know it or not) God will continue giving you graces so as to go to heaven. The Council of Trent condemned this ‘presumptous trust’ in it’s decrees and Canons of Justification.

Solomon was a very holy king and a just ruler who knew practically everything you need to know. However, he broke his covenant with God. The covenant said that as long as he never sacrificed to other gods then Him, his kingdom would prosper. He made one foolish mistake by sacrificing to his pagan wife’s gods, so God allowed Israel to be conquered and smitten Solomon with madness.

King David was a very holy King too, but everyone knows what he did. He not only commited adultery he also killed an innocent man so as to commit his filthy crime. So once saved not always saved (take THAT Calvin!)

Now it is also a fact that God is our just judge but He is also merciful, and as we see in the Old Testament there was a lack of grace in the world and God was very rigorous with his punishments, although He showed mercy to some even though they did not deserve to be shown mercy at all. God for example did not show mercy to the other nations but that of Israel, simply because He loved Israel more than the others and, even though Israel deserved punishment for it’s crimes (and God has chastised Israel many times, such as when He allowed Judah to be taken over by Babylon) He still showed it mercy and always reconciled Israel with Him in the end.

This is not unjust with God. If two children were to purposely insult their family, it would be totally just for the family to kick them out but it would also be just for the family to try to reconcile at least one of them back. The same it is with God. He reconciles some sinners with Him even though they may have sinned grievously but the others He does not give the efficacious grace to repent.

But what will happen to those sinners who are not given the efficacious grace to repent? Doesn’t that mean that they will go to hell?

Of course and they’d deserve it. But that is the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that those sinners who are neither predestined to grace nor to glory may recieve grace from Her and really go to heaven.

 

[philipmarie]

We call Mary our Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix

-Mary is our Co-Redemptrix because She obtained for us from Her Son all the graces which He obtained from His Father. God has made Her the treasurer of His graces
(Leo XIII Supremi Apostolatus officio) and She has obtained all these infinite graces from Christ Himself.

-Mary is our mediatrix because She prays for us and intercedes with God on our behalf. She protects us from the punishments of God and converts sinners from their sins and, when they are thus converted She works hard to give them the graces to persevere unto the end.

Take the example of Saint Mary of Egypt. Were it nor for the Blessed Virgin, this former prostitute would never have repented and lead a holy life.

Not only that but take the example of each and every converted sinner that has ever existed. There is a belief (which I absolutely hold) that in every conversion of a sinner that takes place Mary is responsible for it. Many ex-sinners and ex-protestants should thank Mary for their conversion because without Her, we do not know whether we would have converted or not. “How many Souls are in Heaven now who would never be there if Mary had not acted to save them,” says Saint Alphonsus in his Glories of Mary.

A certain saint once said that Mary is called the Mothe rof Mercy because She positively wills to save sinners from hell and make them saints. There would be no need to call Her the Mother of Mercy if there were no mercy to give.

Don’t listen to the rubbish which stupid Protestants try to feed you (and which some decieved Catholics try to do too): they accuse us of making Mary even more merciful than God because we give to Her the office of giving mercy while God has the office of giving justice. I once met a guy (who isn’t necessarily a member on this forum) accusing me of making God look heartless because I said that Mary keeps God from punishing sinners. Well, it is obvious that God punishes sinners, we see it all the time in the Bible and Christ Himself said that He is our Judge.

When we say that Mary protects sinners from the punishments of God, we do not mean that the Blessed Virgin protects these sinners so that they may continue sinning; She protects them so as to give them the chance to repent and obtain for them the graces to repent. We condemn presumptous devotees who are sinners who do not wish to stop sinning but, because of some prayer they say pretend that Mary will save them. If you are one of these presumptous devotees than Mary cannot love you, although She still prays for these sinners that they may convert and She does give them grace now and then for their greater good.

The devil hates devotion towards the Blessed Virgin and, no sooner does a sinner convert that the devil tries to make him fall again so as to avoid having this sinner being lead into devotion towards Mary. Saint Maximilian Kolbe said that the devil tries leading souls away from Mary “because he know that when a soul seperates from Her it will not recive so much grace.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

We have seen that God chooses to save some over others and that not all recieve the same grace. it also doesn’t mean that because you are so very holy and humble (whether you know it or not) God will continue giving you graces so as to go to heaven. The Council of Trent condemned this ‘presumptous trust’ in it’s decrees and Canons of Justification.

Solomon was a very holy king and a just ruler who knew practically everything you need to know. However, he broke his covenant with God. The covenant said that as long as he never sacrificed to other gods then Him, his kingdom would prosper. He made one foolish mistake by sacrificing to his pagan wife’s gods, so God allowed Israel to be conquered and smitten Solomon with madness.

King David was a very holy King too, but everyone knows what he did. He not only commited adultery he also killed an innocent man so as to commit his filthy crime. So once saved not always saved (take THAT Calvin!)

Now it is also a fact that God is our just judge but He is also merciful, and as we see in the Old Testament there was a lack of grace in the world and God was very rigorous with his punishments, although He showed mercy to some even though they did not deserve to be shown mercy at all. God for example did not show mercy to the other nations but that of Israel, simply because He loved Israel more than the others and, even though Israel deserved punishment for it’s crimes (and God has chastised Israel many times, such as when He allowed Judah to be taken over by Babylon) He still showed it mercy and always reconciled Israel with Him in the end.

This is not unjust with God. If two children were to purposely insult their family, it would be totally just for the family to kick them out but it would also be just for the family to try to reconcile at least one of them back. The same it is with God. He reconciles some sinners with Him even though they may have sinned grievously but the others He does not give the efficacious grace to repent.

But what will happen to those sinners who are not given the efficacious grace to repent? Doesn’t that mean that they will go to hell?

Of course and they’d deserve it. But that is the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that those sinners who are neither predestined to grace nor to glory may recieve grace from Her and really go to heaven.

My friend, I believe the first line in this quote is where you are finding difficulty. You seem to conclude that God distributes His Grace differently. I disagee. God offers all mankind the same free will. And He will not change this. Yet God has been also trying get mankind to come into Communion with Him since Adam and Eve. Man is largely “still” refusing.

St Louis de Montfort make an interesting observation with the Blessed Mother. And He concludes , “not all receieve this Grace”…“Our Lady he is referring to”. But when he said “not all receive this Grace” It is because they chose through free will to walk away from Her. Just Saying.

Anyway Happy New Year, may you continue to walk in Gods light!

 

[Vince1022]

First, what the Bishops and Priests teach about Predestination is exactly what the Church has always thaught for these thousand years. If they thaught something diffirent, they would be called heretics.

Church teaching on predestination has not been the same for these thousand years. I only mentioned Bishops, not Priests, by the way. And you didn’t answer that question.

You also didn’t respond to my question about the Catechism. I assume that’s a fair representation of Catholic teaching regarding predestination. How does it compare to what you think was taught 1500 or 1000 or 500 years ago?

Your claim that a doctrine taught by the Magisterium for a thousand years cannot be changed is completely without basis with respect to Catholic teaching. Do you have any Catholic reference for such a claim? Thanks.

Your reference to the papal bull of Pius II is interesting and informative. Especially the logo at the bottom of the page that seemed to indicate a rejection of Church teaching (i.e. no Vatican II…hard to take seriously, as a Catholic, a page on the internet that rejects Catholic Magisterial teaching!). Papal Bulls are part of the Magisterium, and Tradition, of course, for Catholics. But they don’t overrule future Papal teaching or Ecumenical Councils. And as with all Church teaching, they need to be understood and interpreted in the context of their times. The first Ecumenical Council (Nicaea) legislated authoritatively that Bishops may not transfer between Sees. Yet, today of course, that practice is common. So, too, the teachings of Pius II in this Bull are subject to the living Magisterium and the entire Tradition.

 

[elvisman]

But what will happen to those sinners who are not given the efficacious grace to repent? Doesn’t that mean that they will go to hell?

Of course and they’d deserve it. But that is the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that those sinners who are neither predestined to grace nor to glory may recieve grace from Her and really go to heaven.

The Church does not teach that Mary gives anybody grace. ALL grace, whether it is the grace to believe or all of the graces we are given throughout our lives come from God and God alone.

Everybody is given the grace to believe (in one way or another) - and, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (846-848, 851), ****those who are invincibly ignorant of the truth MAY obtain salvation through God’s mercy:

The Church teaches,Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, which means - “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.**
According to the Catechism, "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Heb. 11:6), the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1).

**Finally - whereas God *may *predestine some for heaven or preordain some events for the completion of his divine will - he does NOT predestine anybody for damnation. That would make God a monster and he cannot be the author of evil. Neither does the Church teach that Mary can rescue some that God has refused grace to.

 

[philipmarie]

You just can’t find anybody these days you know who believes that the Blessed Virgin is the Mediatrix of all grace. This is the thought that has caused me to jump up and down in anger more than anything else, because people have the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Mercy and not only do they not trust Her, they also obstinately reject Her help.

To speak tactily and to the point and to pur my heart out, I do not care for the opinions of those who do not believe that the Blessed Virgin is the Mediatrix of all Grace. I was literally the biggest sinner on the block. I scandalized children, I ruined the lives of my schoolmates because I regarded them as criminals and not as friends and elevated myself to some kind of mini god. But then came the Blessed Virgin and it was She who converted me. And when I found out that the Blessed Virgin is called Mediatrix, something which I was totally ignorant of, I believed it instantly.

For those who say that the Church doesn’t teach this doctrine pose a claim that is wholly without foundation at all. Oh sure, even if I were to provide encyclicals, the writings of the saints, the magisterium and all that people will still say that this is not enough.

Here is authenthic Church teaching regarding Mary’s Mediation: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm These are encyclicals of the Pope. ex cathedra.

The Holy Office actually approved the invocation of Mary as Co-Redemptrix in June 1913 and January 1914 (see Denzinger 3034 note). We have the Miraculous Medal a Church approved apparition which teaches in the most precise way not only Mary’s Mediation but also Mary’s love for us all.

The Church doesn’t hold that it is Mary that creates grace itself (like how heretics have dreamt!) The Church holds that God creates grace and gives it to us through Mary. God is the river while Mary is the channel.

Personally, I doubt whether Vatican II was infallible or that the statements of the last four popes were infallible at all. However, if you don’'t believe that Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, then I have to say that it is your loss because you refuse to see the sweetness of the mercy of Mary and to let Her help you in our salvation. He who tries approaching the Son without the Mother is trying to fly without wings, said Pope Leo XIII, undoubtly one of the greatest and holiest Popes there have ever been. And He got his success because He always had recourse to Mary Immaculate to help him in His office of the Vicar of Christ. So did Pius X.

When Pope Pius XI, who was undoubtly a great Pope too though, refused to Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we see what happened: world war II. When Pope Pius XII (although He did try to do something) failed to consecrate Russia with all the Bishops of the world, we had what undoubtly is one of the worst periods of human history.

I don’t think Vatican II did any good. Because if it did, if the truimph of the Immaculate Heart were here, why on earth are we always fearing day and night of a nuclear war? Why is the majority of the world still not catholic? Only 1.5 billion people are Catholic, out of a total of 6 billion.

If we have to save souls, we must save them through Mary. If Priests want to convert sinners, they must pray to Mary and ask Her to help them. She will definitely help them and will always extend Her hand towards sinners.

 

[The_Exodus]

Philip,

You have solid views on predestination. I warn you though, you will not find much sympathy expressing your views. Many people have a closed mind on the subject, and those who disagree rarely take the time to understand the argument, and often mis-represent what they are attacking.

Salza’s book is good, but Garrigou-Lagrange’s book is where it’s at. He doesn’t waste time characterizing Calvinists (who are quite close to traditional Church teaching than many current Catholics are on the subject), and he better understands and explains metaphysically what the issue is all about. Lastly, his work “Grace” (GL’s that is) ought to compliment Predestination. It is the best book on the subject I have ever encountered; the clearest, most comprehensive, and best documented. It can be found online at ewtn and read there for free, if interested.

Now, far be it from me to utter and blasphemy about Mary. I wish not to speak too boldy or arrogantly, and I pray nothing I say will be out of line. But all created things, Mary included, are subject to the divine motion and will, and nothing functions independently of that will. Hence, Mary, who is united to God in a degree greater than any other creature, is for that very reason all the more influenced by that same motion and divine will, and hence, no one can, so to speak, “get help from Mary” without also getting help from God. In a word, no one can be un-predestined by God and then “become” predestined because of Mary alone. God, through Mary yes. But not Mary alone. She is blessed and holy, but she is not the foundation of all being and existence.

God bless.

 

[philipmarie]

Philip,

You have solid views on predestination. I warn you though, you will not find much sympathy expressing your views. Many people have a closed mind on the subject, and those who disagree rarely take the time to understand the argument, and often mis-represent what they are attacking.

Salza’s book is good, but Garrigou-Lagrange’s book is where it’s at. He doesn’t waste time characterizing Calvinists (who are quite close to traditional Church teaching than many current Catholics are on the subject), and he better understands and explains metaphysically what the issue is all about. Lastly, his work “Grace” (GL’s that is) ought to compliment Predestination. It is the best book on the subject I have ever encountered; the clearest, most comprehensive, and best documented. It can be found online at ewtn and read there for free, if interested.

Now, far be it from me to utter and blasphemy about Mary. I wish not to speak too boldy or arrogantly, and I pray nothing I say will be out of line. But all created things, Mary included, are subject to the divine motion and will, and nothing functions independently of that will. Hence, Mary, who is united to God in a degree greater than any other creature, is for that very reason all the more influenced by that same motion and divine will, and hence, no one can, so to speak, “get help from Mary” without also getting help from God. In a word, no one can be un-predestined by God and then “become” predestined because of Mary alone. God, through Mary yes. But not Mary alone. She is blessed and holy, but she is not the foundation of all being and existence.

God bless.

Well obviously that all souls are influenced by God through Mary. But She has the plentitude of all grace and, by giving Her the authority and the graces to be our advocate, She still is said to save us. I believe that because She prays for those sinners who want to repent, God will love them because they are being made His friends and children by Mary’s prayers and graces.

We are obligated to learn and believe doctrines according to the interpretation of the Church (the magisterium, theologians) and not out of our own mind.