Mary and the Great Cloud of Witnesses.

[rbarcia]

The point isn’t to debate if Saints live on earth or now. My point is “intercession” is a very real fact in Bible.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. However we do not call anyone a Saint on earth. We know they are here. We have a great idea who they are and in fact you may know one. But its still an immediate judgement at death by God. In other words, if you go directly Heaven your a Saint.

You are making an assumption that these prayers on the bowl came from Christians in heaven.

Also, there is nothing here that indicates that these prayers were offered by someone through asking the person in heaven to intercede.

OK now, when you state this…“Paul seems to distinguish the seed of the flesh and according to the spirit.”

Paul is referring to the Spirit that dwells within all those Baptized in the Trinity. Or as Paul states “it is not I that lives. but Christ that lives within me”

So when Paul says “it is not I that lives. but Christ that lives within me”, he really means if you are baptized in the Trinity?

As far as Queen of Heaven you made the Historical connection. Doesn’t have to be Biblical, its Tradition, before the Bible was Oral Tradition.

Here’s the KJV Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; [Called by whom? the resurrected Jesus Christ]

Ok so Saul has a Vision of the Lord …“The Immaculate Heart of Mary” at Fatima. Isn’t the proof in the pudding just as it is with Paul? Let alone whats Biblical with Mary.

So discussion on Marion apparitions is not really what I was talking about. I think that is a topic for another thread.

So then you will believe the Catholic who wrote the Sciptures and the Vision of Paul. But you won’t believe the Catholics who bear witness to that truth in Mexico?

Again, the claim that Catholics wrote the Bible is not the topic. I don’t believe the first. You have to prove in another thread that the early church is the RCC of today. A different thread.

What is the point of intercession? Why do we even need this? This is something you’ll have to reflect on. I could tell you why, but its a reality you will have to come to see as truth yourself. Did not the Lord directly interceed in the life of Saul? Does not Paul directly interceed in the life of others? So theres the “ascend/descend” process again through the Angels Michael and Gabriel and constantly by prayer on earth by Christians.

Paul exhorts people on earth to pray for others because we should love them above ourselves. The point is focused on the person who prays, not a command to go through Christians who have passed.

Anyway when you say Paul seems to distinguish the seed from the flesh. Paul distinguishs the fact that their is not life without Christ, none, zero, zip. Because of Christ and the Cross and your Baptism, you are not automatically saved. It just means your not automatically dead.

Where in the Bible “anywhere” does its state “Just pray to Jesus Christ and your sins are forgiven”? It doesn’t exist.

Where did I say this? I don’t believe in a Sinner’s Prayer.

One has to allude to vague interpretations, … Sins forgiven Biblically?

When did I begin talking about salvation?

The Apostles themselves by “Bible” Eat and Drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. What happened in John, the discourse on to eat my body and drink my blood or you are dead. He states it twice and more implicit the second time. Everyone leaves, Christ asks the Apostles; “Will you leave Me also?” Whats their response? " And where shall we go and to whom Lord" So then its a forgone conclusion this is God in the Flesh and He is telling you the equation to save your Souls, The Last Supper?..Do this in memory of Me. He didn’t ask, he told them “DO THIS”

When did I bring up transubstantiation, Real Presence, etc…The topic of weather John 6 is even about Communion is something else. Shouldn’t these be separate threads?

The resurrected Christ appears to his Disciples in John 20, and what happens here? And the Resurrected Christ states. As my father has sent Me, so I send YOU! Then he breathed on them and said: RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, IF YOU FORGIVE MENS SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN. IF YOU HOLD THEM BOUND THEY ARE HELD BOUND.

So how does one conclude out of that, you can have your own sins forgiven by yourself?

What are they Binding and Losing …YOUR SIN. How are they binding and losing your SIN? Through the Sacrements of the Church the BODY and BLOOD of Christ. The same holds true for the Doctrine on Moral and Faith through this equation of Bind and Lose through the Holy Spirit.

What does intercession do? It helps you remain on the path of Santifying Grace. Thus a State of Grace.

I contend The “Blessed Virgin Mother, Mother of the Lord” [as defined in BIBLE] interceeds for mankind through the Will of God and to be more accurate the Holy Spirit. If fact nothing indicates otherwise on the contrary.

St Peter himself in 2 Peter 3:14-17 tells you Pauls words will be distorted:shrug: The Gospel itself States this. Whos distorting the words of Paul the CC?

Peace

I think these are all interesting topics my friend, but it seems like these are a lot of different topics to go post for post.

 

[jlhargus]

In Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
rbarcia;8787692:

You are making an assumption that these prayers on the bowl came from Christians in heaven. Also, there is nothing here that indicates that these prayers were offered by someone through asking the person in heaven to intercede.

JL: You have assumpted the prayers in the bowl didn’t come from Christians in heaven. Also notice those prayers did not go directly to God. The elders offered them to God thru the Lamb (Christ). They are the prayers of the saints on earth.

Rv5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: FOR THOU wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY kindred, and tongue, and PEOPLE, and NATION;

So when Paul says “it is not I that lives. but Christ that lives within me”, he really means if you are baptized in the Trinity?

JL: Yes.

[Acts2:37 Now when **THEY HEARD

this, they WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, and SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE is unto you, AND to your CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.] Acts2:37-39 gives a simple and concise example how people are saved including children. Yet you reject the clear teaching of scripture to hold a tradition of men not found in scripture. Acts2:37-38 tells us in TWO VERSES. You can’t give evidence, for your traditions, with any amount of scripture, because it’s unbiblical. What happened to those who gladly received the Word?

[Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **SAVE YOURSELVES **from the untoward generation. 41 Then **THEY that gladly RECEIVED his word WERE BAPTIZED **: and the SAME DAY were **ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And **THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS **.] Notice Peter says SAVE YOURSELVES. How? By being BAPTIZED to receive the Holy Spirit, by which they WERE ADDED to that ONE VISIBLE Apostolic Fellowship the Church.] What did those people do to SAVE THEMSELVES? They were WATER BAPTIZED.

[1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, **eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:] Notice SAVED BY WATER, the LIKE FIGURE BAPTISM, now saves us.

[Gal3:25 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8330666&postcount=192

Again, the claim that Catholics wrote the Bible is not the topic. I don’t believe the first. You have to prove in another thread that the early church is the RCC of today. A different thread.

JL: If the early Church was not the Catholic Church then name which Church is. So as not to get to far off topic. The following are my posts on another line giving scriptural evidence for the Catholic Church.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447593&postcount=987

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447600&postcount=988

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447604&postcount=989

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447619&postcount=990**

 

[rbarcia]

As far as this
“So when Paul says “it is not I that lives. but Christ that lives within me”, he really means if you are baptized in the Trinity?”

You know what come to mind off the top of my head is Paul in Gal 4:4-5-6. But ya your right.

rbarcia I pretty much believe its time for all Christianity to put our heads together on all this. I really try to avoid CC teaching and pretty much stick with the Bible for that reason. Obviously not you, but even the Incarnation as your read back through this thread is in question. So the understanding varys to such a degree that it seems to me a baseline is needed to start.

So I believe Jesus is born of a virgin. I believe Mary is a very Blessed woman. A role model for Christians.

I don’t believe in things like Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, her role as Co-Mediator, that she was sinless, Mother of the Church, and Queen of Heaven. Verses like Rev 12, the woman symbolizes Israel. So to go back to the point of this thread, I believe acknowledging the “title” leads to the above. It is step one in a reasoning chain used to convince of all Marian doctrines. That is my problem with the title.

So intercessional prayer your good with, your just not convinced that the Saints in Heaven could interceed?

I think it is ok for Christians to pray for each other. But I disagree probably in the role intercession plays. When I pray for others, it is also a benefit to my faith to see prayers for others answered. My desire in prayer should not be selfish, but I should have a genuine concern for others. As such, Paul exhorts people to pray for others, but not so much “ask someone in a better state of grace.”

 

[JustaServant]

So as not to derail the Mary, Mother of God thread, I am opening a new thread.

Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
Becoming Catholic again created a strange situation for me.
What about Mary and the Saints?
Even as a flaming fundamentalist I knew better than to say Catholics worshipped Mary, mainly because I grew up Catholic and knew that wasn‘t true. But wasn’t PRAYING to Mary and the Saints ‘worship’? For almost twenty years I heard about ‘Marian idolatry’.
In my younger years I bought into the ’Two Babylons’ lie that ‘Mary and saint worship’ came from Babylon.
I would often hear that “Catholics pray to dead people.” Even after I dismissed the anti-Catholic lies, I was still uncomfortable with praying to Mary or any other saint. Are saints mere “dead people”? Was Jesus was practicing witchcraft at the transfiguration?
How did God break through that wall?
It began with understanding how the early Church, and the Hebrews in particular dealt with the subject of death and the afterlife.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’.
Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

 

[JustaServant]

God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:

1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”

There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:

Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

 

[JustaServant]

I think it is ok for Christians to pray for each other. But I disagree probably in the role intercession plays. When I pray for others, it is also a benefit to my faith to see prayers for others answered. My desire in prayer should not be selfish, but I should have a genuine concern for others. As such, Paul exhorts people to pray for others, but not so much “ask someone in a better state of grace.”

Another thread has been started for this subject.

 

[rbarcia]

I don’t think the argument is around weather Protestants believe people in heaven are dead. I believe God is a God of the living.

The argument is around a Christian here on earth asking a Christian in heaven to pray for them. And it is not even a question of ability and what is possible. Just that Christians should offer their prayers to God.

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t think the argument is around weather Protestants believe people in heaven are dead. I believe God is a God of the living.

The argument is around a Christian here on earth asking a Christian in heaven to pray for them. And it is not even a question of ability and what is possible. Just that Christians should offer their prayers to God.

Your question is answered within the OP:

Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

 

[martininthefiel]

Verse to an old Scottish hymn:

“One body we, one body who partake. One Church united in Communion blest. One name we bear, one Bread of life we break, with all Thy saints on earth and saints at rest.”

I love the phrase, “For Thou art surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses…” What a wonderful image.

“Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.” (Heb. 12:1-3)

 

[JustaServant]

Verse to an old Scottish hymn:

“One body we, one body who partake. One Church united in Communion blest. One name we bear, one Bread of life we break, with all Thy saints on earth and saints at rest.”

I love the phrase, “For Thou art surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses…” What a wonderful image.

“Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.” (Heb. 12:1-3)

I truly feel sorry for Protestants who do not understand this.