Mary as Co-Redemptrix

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eric3141

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There are some who are teaching that Co-redemptrix means that Mary’s sufferings also paid/atoned for our sins in the direct sense along with Christ’s… that she participated in “objective” redemption whereas we only participate in “subjective” redemption by petitioning heaven to release merits for people.

These people are claiming the above to be Catholic doctrine. I called the apologist line today and was told that it was not. But I’m interested in more opinions on the matter as my friends are telling me the above is true.

This really scares me as I know in the depths of my soul that ONLY Jesus atoned/paid for my sins. I am worried I have discovered the Catholic church is teaching something that is not true.

URL to the group claiming the above to be true:
voxpopuli.org/
 
emyers3141:
There are some who are teaching that Co-redemptrix means that Mary’s sufferings also paid/atoned for our sins in the direct sense along with Christ’s… that she participated in “objective” redemption whereas we only participate in “subjective” redemption by petitioning heaven to release merits for people.

These people are claiming the above to be Catholic doctrine. I called the apologist line today and was told that it was not. But I’m interested in more opinions on the matter as my friends are telling me the above is true.
The apologist line is correct.

From the Catechism:
**1992 **Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#I

and:

Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice

**613 **Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

**614 **This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.441 First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.442

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm#II
 
emyers3141:
There are some who are teaching that Co-redemptrix means that Mary’s sufferings also paid/atoned for our sins in the direct sense along with Christ’s… that she participated in “objective” redemption whereas we only participate in “subjective” redemption by petitioning heaven to release merits for people.

These people are claiming the above to be Catholic doctrine. I called the apologist line today and was told that it was not. But I’m interested in more opinions on the matter as my friends are telling me the above is true.

URL to the group claiming the above to be true:
voxpopuli.org/
Whenever I hear the idea that Mary also suffered at the Cross, so that she is our co-redemptrix I cringe, literally. Mary was no God, she has no power to redeem us. If Jesus is not the Son of God, and the second part of the Holy Trinity He has no power to redeem, no matter how much he suffered. In essence the only way Jesus crucifixion was redeeming, is because he is the Son of God.

There are other explanations for the title co-redemptrix that make more sense. But the idea of Mary’s suffering co-redeeming us is very dangerous IMO.
 
emyers3141:
URL to the group claiming the above to be true:
voxpopuli.org/
I’ll admit that I didn’t look at this site too hard, but I didn’t see the part you claimed that she “atoned for our sins”. Her role as “the New Eve” and as our “Co-Redemptrix” have been well defended on this site in numerous other threads.

Can you save me the trouble and show exactly where those claims are made?

Notworthy
 
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NotWorthy:
I’ll admit that I didn’t look at this site too hard, but I didn’t see the part you claimed that she “atoned for our sins”. Her role as “the New Eve” and as our “Co-Redemptrix” have been well defended on this site in numerous other threads.

Can you save me the trouble and show exactly where those claims are made?

Notworthy
Go to the Answering 7 Common Objections section.
Then go to Part 2.
Look under Objection 4 where you will find the below quote. I added caps for emphasis. That site calls the paying/atoning for sins “objective” redemption and calls the average Catholic’s participation “subjective” redemption. It clearly claims that Mary participated in objective redemption.

"Indeed Christian Scripture calls all Christians to “make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, which is the Church” (Col. 1:24). This teaching of St. Paul is not speaking of a participation of all Christians in the historical and universal redemption on Calvary where Jesus Christ acquired the graces of Redemption by his passion and death (sometimes theologically referred to as “objective redemption”). If so, this would incorrectly infer that something was “lacking” in the historic redemptive sufferings and concurring saving merits of Jesus Christ, which were in itself infinite and inexhaustible.

Rather, St. Paul’s teaching refers to the Christian imperative through free co-operation, prayer, and sacrifice to participate in the release and distribution of the infinite graces acquired by Jesus Christ on Calvary to the human family (theologically referred to as “subjective redemption”). Just as every human heart must actively respond in freedom to the saving grace of Jesus Christ for his own personal, subjective redemption, so too the Christian is called to actively participate in the release and distribution of the graces of redemption for others as well, and, in this way, to “make up” what St. Paul calls “lacking” in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of Christ’s body. In this regard, all Christians truly participate in subjective redemption, this saving distribution of grace as “God’s co*workers” (1 Cor. 3:9) or “co-redeemers” to use the expression of 20th century popes. [45]

Mary’s redemptive participation differs from this general Christian call to participate in the distribution of saving graces in individual and personal subjective redemption in so far as SHE ALONE ALSO PARTICIPATED, once again subordinately and entirely dependent upon the Redeemer, IN THE OBJECTIVE, HISTORICAL, AND UNIVERSAL REDEMPTION as well, as the New Eve with and under the New Adam."
 
I found this at EWTN in an article dealing with OUR LADY’S COOPERATION IN THE REDEMPTION
We should define terms:
Code:
 1) objective redemption is the work of earning a title to all
    forgiveness and grace, by the great sacrifice.
Code:
 2) Subjective redemption, the process of giving out the fruits
    of the objective redemption, throughout all ages.
Within the objective redemption, there can be remote cooperation, in faith
accepting to be the Mother of the Redeemer, to furnish the flesh in which He
could die; and immediate cooperation, which means some kind of role in the
great sacrifice itself.
Note that the article also quotes Early Church Fathers who call Mary the “New Eve”. And just as Eve, actively participated in sin, Mary must then have “actively participated” “in some way”.

But the quote you yourself listed, says “subordinately and entirely dependent upon the Redeemer,”

I hope this helps a little. Please, Read that article.

God Bless,
Maria
 
MariaG,

I read the article. Scares the pants off me. I wonder, though, if it’s official Catholic teaching that she also participated in objective redemption then why does the Catholic Answers apologist say she did not? I asked them that question today and was told that she did not do that. My point is that there seems to be disagreement within the Church over this issue – which I’m hoping means it’s just a theory and not doctrine.
 
emyers3141:
I read the article. Scares the pants off me. I wonder, though, if it’s official Catholic teaching that she also participated in objective redemption then why does the Catholic Answers apologist say she did not? I asked them that question today and was told that she did not do that. My point is that there seems to be disagreement within the Church over this issue – which I’m hoping means it’s just a theory and not doctrine.
JMJ + OBT​

That Mary played some role in the objective redemption is common-sense, if you are willing to think in terms of the matter as the Catholic Church does.

What kind of role and how best to describe that role is another matter.

Ultimately, I have to say that I favor the notion that she participated in an immediate manner (as opposed to only a remote manner) in the objective redemption, from the Annunciation to and including the Crucifixion and Death of Our Lord. I think it’s reasonable to say too that she at least had a remote role in the objective redemption from the Resurrection through the Ascension. We see her right in the middle of things too as the subjective redemption in the age of the New Covenant gets into full-swing leading up to Pentecost (read the beginning of Acts).

The important thing to remember is this: God did not need Mary to accomplish the Redemption, whatever role she played in it. So if she had an immediate role in the objective redemption or participated (and participates) only in the subjective redemption, albeit in a manner unique to herself, then it is because God has decided to involve her in His plans; and not because Jesus could not have done it by Himself. And the only reason she could do anything that pleased God during her earthly life is because of God’s grace, the same being true for us and all men.

On the other hand, I’m not sure “co-redemptrix” is the best term to use to describe Mary’s role in the Redemption (it might be), even if she did cooperate immediately in the objective redemption. On the other hand, I’m not sure what phrase or word would be be better suited.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA
 
Nothing is official yet. No dogmas have been proclaimed

But the claims are not heresy either. They are perfectly defendable. Mary could participate in the objective redemption, in a subordinate way, because there was ultimately only one act. One common predestination. And Mary was tied up in it, in perfect unity with Jesus.

Mary’s role in redemption can be compared to Eve’s role in original sin. Eve participated in the objective original sin, in a way no other person can. She was there participating in the original act which damaged human nature, we cannot damage human nature anymore than it already is, we can only pass original sin on subjectively to others through procreation. And yet, ultimately, we are taught that original sin is officially passed to us through Adam…we inherit it from Eve too…but primarily from Adam. Because Eve could have sinned, and Adam didn’t have to, and allegedly (because he is the head of the race) it wouldnt have passed on to us…some say because God would have made him a new mate, other (more ancient theologians) say that it is because human nature is usually passed specifically through the Active Pricipal in procreation, the male. But if Eve hadnt sinned, but Adam still did…then God would not have found a new husband for Eve. If Eve alone had sinned we would have inherited nothing, but when Adam sinned we are said to inherit it from BOTH, though primarily from Adam.

Same way with the coredemption. If Mary had done it alone, nothing would have happened. And if Jesus did it alone, it still would have worked. But Mary could still participate in a unique and objective way (like Eve at the original commiting of sin) that no one else can. We can only pass graces along, preform sacraments, pray for people, unite our sufferings to Christ, and make our acts meritous through his already won treasury of merits. But Mary was there participating in the actual acquisition.

But it is surely a subordinate participation; because her own Immaculate Conception, which allowed her to participate in such a way, could only happen based on the foreseen merits of Christ, and most certainly Christ alone. Because she (not being God) could not merit her own ability to merit based on a foreseen act of her own that was conditional on the ability to merit being given in the first place.

I have heard it stated as thus: Christ gave Mary spiritual life, in order that Mary could assist in giving him physical life, and together, through the laying down of this physical life, they could give birth spiritually to the rest of us, even though it might mean giving up our own physical life in martyrdom.

It mirrors the Adam and Eve story: Adam gave Eve physical life, so that she could assist in taking away his spiritual life, and after the giving up of their spiritual life, they together gave life physically to the rest of us, even though it might mean giving up our own spiritual life in original sin.

Now, that is not say it was Adam’s plan all along. Its only an analogy.

But notice the intricate mirrored parallel correspondences:

Christ and Mary: Adam and Eve:

Male gives spiritual life” “Male gives physical life”

Female gives physical life” “Female takes spiritual life”
“Physical Life taken away” “Spiritual life given away”

“spiritual life given to us all” “physical life passed on to all”
“even at expense of physical” “even at expense of spiritual”

Also, consider Mary’s role like a deacon at Mass. A priest can preform Mass without a deacon. But a deacon cannot do it alone. And yet when they do it together it is, in a way, *both *of their Mass, because the deacon, as an ordained minister, participates in a unique objective way, which is different from the subjective manner in which the laity participate in the Mass through the uniting of our intentions with the altar.
 
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Mike_D30:
… If Jesus is not the Son of God, and the second part of the Holy Trinity He has no power to redeem, no matter how much he suffered. In essence the only way Jesus crucifixion was redeeming, is because he is the Son of God.
In essence the only way Jesus crucifixion was redeeming, is because he is the Son of God.
JMJ + OBT​

Why? Why is His suffering redemptive in the first place, even given that He is the Son of God? How does the atonement operate?

(Trying to get you to flesh out your objections.)

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA
 
emyers3141:
There are some who are teaching that Co-redemptrix means that Mary’s sufferings also paid/atoned for our sins in the direct sense along with Christ’s… that she participated in “objective” redemption whereas we only participate in “subjective” redemption by petitioning heaven to release merits for people.

These people are claiming the above to be Catholic doctrine. I called the apologist line today and was told that it was not. But I’m interested in more opinions on the matter as my friends are telling me the above is true.

This really scares me as I know in the depths of my soul that ONLY Jesus atoned/paid for my sins. I am worried I have discovered the Catholic church is teaching something that is not true.

URL to the group claiming the above to be true:
voxpopuli.org/
This issue bothered me quite a bit as a new Catholic, too. Mary can be seen as the new Eve; where Eve said no, Mary said yes. But, while Mary did participate in a unique way in salvation’s history, it can also be said that we all “cooperate” with Christ in some small way when it comes to bringing others to Christ. This (among many other reasons including issues of the English language) being the case, the term “Co-Redemptrix” is left without any special meaning–except to cause a lot of confusion. In my humble opinion, it only muddies the theological water.

That being said, however, it is important perhaps to note that some of the “Co-Redemptrix” claims appear less tied to theology than they are tied to one’s culture. This may explain, in part, why the debates get so heated at times on this topic–because the supporters perceive it almost as an affront on their culture. That’s why I try to steer clear of “5th Dogma” discussions as much as possible.

I do have an article available to anyone who may be interested in further on the topic. Some helpful constructive criticism was recently offered by another forum member, but alas the second round of editing is not complete. If anyone wants it on an "as is"basis, however, just drop me an e-mail.
 
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batteddy:
Also, consider Mary’s role like a deacon at Mass. A priest can preform Mass without a deacon. But a deacon cannot do it alone. And yet when they do it together it is, in a way, *both *of their Mass, because the deacon, as an ordained minister, participates in a unique objective way, which is different from the subjective manner in which the laity participate in the Mass through the uniting of our intentions with the altar.
Terrific analogy! Thanks for sharing! :clapping:
 
emyers3141:
MariaG,

I read the article. Scares the pants off me. I wonder, though, if it’s official Catholic teaching that she also participated in objective redemption then why does the Catholic Answers apologist say she did not? I asked them that question today and was told that she did not do that. My point is that there seems to be disagreement within the Church over this issue – which I’m hoping means it’s just a theory and not doctrine.
It IS NOT Catholic teaching. It is something that has been discussed. So what…so has women’s ordination and look where that went. Not happenin’

This probably will not happen either because it is too confusing .

Our sufferings can be joined to those of Christ, but nothing in Catholic teaching says anything that Mary’s was redemptive. She may have suffered at His side and at the foot of the cross, but she was not the Messiah and her suffering, though meritorius in the eyes of God…was not part of the sacrifice that redeemed us.

If Rome doesn’t tell us to believe it then don’t lose sleep about it.

If and when they did (if ever) then there would be plenty of explanation so that the confusion was dispelled.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Church Militant:
It IS NOT Catholic teaching. It is something that has been discussed. So what…so has women’s ordination and look where that went. Not happenin’

This probably will not happen either because it is too confusing .

Our sufferings can be joined to those of Christ, but nothing in Catholic teaching says anything that Mary’s was redemptive.
I hope you are right. However, on this issue JP2 said that she was involved in ALL ASPECTS of the redemption – which would include paying for our sins since that is part of the redemption.

Much angst here.
 
emyers3141:
I hope you are right. However, on this issue JP2 said that she was involved in ALL ASPECTS of the redemption – which would include paying for our sins since that is part of the redemption.

Much angst here.
Did you look up the papal documents to see specifically how His Holiness meant that? I would. The Vatican
Pax tecum,
 
Church Militant:
Did you look up the papal documents to see specifically how His Holiness meant that? I would. The Vatican
Pax tecum,
What!? Are you suggesting we look at context? :tsktsk:

just kidding. 🙂
 
emyers3141:
JP2 said that she was involved in ALL ASPECTS of the redemption – which would include paying for our sins since that is part of the redemption.
JMJ + OBT​

What is the nature of Christ’s payment for sins? Can you explain to us your understanding of the Cross and the Atonement?

Protestants tend to view this differently than Catholics; and Eastern Christians tend to view it differently than Western Christians.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA
 
whosebob said:

JMJ + OBT​

What is the nature of Christ’s payment for sins? Can you explain to us your understanding of the Cross and the Atonement?

I only know that only Jesus paid for my sins. 100% Jesus, 0% anybody else. Only the Son of God atoned for my sins on the cross - and nobody else at all. I’m now trying to see if this is what the Catholic church teaches or if she teaches that Mary, too, atoned some.
 
emyers3141:
I only know that only Jesus paid for my sins. 100% Jesus, 0% anybody else. Only the Son of God atoned for my sins on the cross - and nobody else at all. I’m now trying to see if this is what the Catholic church teaches or if she teaches that Mary, too, atoned some.
Yes. Christ is the sole source of our forgiveness. The theology of Mary as Mediatrix, Co-redeemer, etc. is about how she is instrumental in redemption, not that she is author or source of it. For instance, if you prayed and witnessed for the conversion of a sinner and he converts, you would accurately be described as being instrumental in his salvation.

Scott
 
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