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BonnieBj
Guest
This is not a term that was ever taught when I was young. What is it and is it a dogma, something that we must believe. I can find nothing about it in the catechism.
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VARC
Guest
It is primarily the teaching of st Louis de Montfort. It is not dogma and you may dissent from the formula but a lot of catholics are going to call you a heretic for doing that.
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kleary
Guest
Not defined yet…but most definitely believed by me and others…
You do not need to believe this in order to be Catholic yet…but most likely you will in the future if it is formally defined by an Ecumenical Council or Pope.
Ken
You do not need to believe this in order to be Catholic yet…but most likely you will in the future if it is formally defined by an Ecumenical Council or Pope.
Ken
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TC2
Guest
I’m not Catholic, so hope it’s okay to ask a question here.
If not, my sincere apologies.
What do you mean when you say ‘co-redemtrix’?
If not, my sincere apologies.
What do you mean when you say ‘co-redemtrix’?
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Rawb
Guest
my understanding of the teaching is this: Mary carried Christ in her womb and brought Him forth. He is our redemption, so Mary, in a way, helped to bring forth our redemption. Her grief and suffering during His Crucifixtion is/was greater than any other suffering, so that contributes to our redemption as well (Catholics believe suffering and pain to be redemptive, in case you didn’t know, and that our pain and suffering can complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. We can all help contribute, and Mary did so during His Passion.)
It’s a title that encompasses that idea.
Assuming I’m correct. Which I probably am not.
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Linda_Marie
Guest
It is not saying that Mary is equal to Christ in redeeming us but that Mary, by her co-operation in bringing Christ into the world, played a major role in our redemption. Her will was perfectly united with the Will of God. God willed that all men might be saved and Mary, by her free choice, said “Let it be done to me according to Thy Will.”
This explains it better than I can.
catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
I think that some of the hesitation to declare this as dogma stems from the misunderstanding of what the title means. On the surface, the title appears to put Mary on the same level as Christ. I saw one staunch Catholic become livid because he misunderstood the title thinking that it was declaring Mary divine when I just mentioned Co-Redemptrix. If it can confuse Catholics, then how much more can it confuse non-Catholics?
This explains it better than I can.
catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
I think that some of the hesitation to declare this as dogma stems from the misunderstanding of what the title means. On the surface, the title appears to put Mary on the same level as Christ. I saw one staunch Catholic become livid because he misunderstood the title thinking that it was declaring Mary divine when I just mentioned Co-Redemptrix. If it can confuse Catholics, then how much more can it confuse non-Catholics?
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rien
Guest
I find this heresy. And if its true the Holy Spirit prevents the Pope from teaching hersey, Mary will never be so declared.
It would be an abmoniation IMO to do so.
It would be an abmoniation IMO to do so.
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Like
Guest
WOW! Thems pretty strong words.
You’ve clearly made it known you don’t understand the term. I hope you will read up on it.
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VARC
Guest
Well I hate to be the one who breaks it to you but it has a good chance of being dogmatized in the future. I too find the whole formula to be unnecessary, ambigiously stated, and prone to be interpreted with unspeakable heresy. But my objections won’t stop this train. Vatican II has stopped it in its tracks…at least for the time being.
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TC2
Guest
Thank you for (trying) to explain.
You’re right, it is confusing.
What, exactly, does this mean then?
That Mary is savior also?
It is both Christ and she who saves?
Okay to pray to Mary not as intercessor but in place of Christ, since she is co-redemptrix?
What does this mean, in terms of worship/salvation?
You’re right, it is confusing.
What, exactly, does this mean then?
That Mary is savior also?
It is both Christ and she who saves?
Okay to pray to Mary not as intercessor but in place of Christ, since she is co-redemptrix?
What does this mean, in terms of worship/salvation?
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VARC
Guest
In summary it means that every grace that comes from God goes through the virgin. She is the distributer of all graces. She gives them to whom she wills, when she wills, and in whatever manner she wills. That’s paraphrasing Montfort. So you can see why many people inside and outside the church are uneasy with the idea.
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TC2
Guest
Thank you, VARC.
Yes, I can see the problems with this.
Were this declared, I believe that the protestant/Catholic
split would widen, and worsen.
Thank you all so much for taking time to explain this to me.
I really appreciate it!
Yes, I can see the problems with this.
Were this declared, I believe that the protestant/Catholic
split would widen, and worsen.
Thank you all so much for taking time to explain this to me.
I really appreciate it!
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Cathryn
Guest
Mary is a human being, created by God. We don’t worship Mary. She is not equal to God. We worship Him alone.
However:
Simeon prophesied in the Sacred Scripture:
“And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.” Luke 2:35
A sword will pierce our own hearts also, because we are One in Christ. We lift up our hearts, when we stand at the foot of the Cross, during the Sacrifice of the Mass. When we worship at the Sacrifice of the Mass, we are uniting ourselves with His one and only Sacrifice of the Cross at Calvary on Good Friday. We offer ourselves, along with Jesus Christ as He offers Himself in His Sacrifice to the Father. This is how St. Paul says we share in His Sacrifice:
“The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?” 1Corinthians 10:16
Mary offered herself with Jesus’ Sacrifice. She said “Be it done unto me according to your Word.” And a sword pierced her soul, too, according to prophecy. We all have a co-redeeming role, but the Blessed Mother’s role is greater than ours, but not greater than, or equal to Jesus Christ. “Co” here means “with”. It’s a participation. It is as St. Paul says a partaking or sharing in His one perfect Sacrifice at Calvary on the Cross.
However:
Simeon prophesied in the Sacred Scripture:
“And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.” Luke 2:35
A sword will pierce our own hearts also, because we are One in Christ. We lift up our hearts, when we stand at the foot of the Cross, during the Sacrifice of the Mass. When we worship at the Sacrifice of the Mass, we are uniting ourselves with His one and only Sacrifice of the Cross at Calvary on Good Friday. We offer ourselves, along with Jesus Christ as He offers Himself in His Sacrifice to the Father. This is how St. Paul says we share in His Sacrifice:
“The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?” 1Corinthians 10:16
Mary offered herself with Jesus’ Sacrifice. She said “Be it done unto me according to your Word.” And a sword pierced her soul, too, according to prophecy. We all have a co-redeeming role, but the Blessed Mother’s role is greater than ours, but not greater than, or equal to Jesus Christ. “Co” here means “with”. It’s a participation. It is as St. Paul says a partaking or sharing in His one perfect Sacrifice at Calvary on the Cross.
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VARC
Guest
I don’t think that anyone is being accused of worship Mary but the Monfortian formula is problematic for two resaons: 1) its SOUNDS blasphemous and 2) the Fathers never spoke of Mary in such a formula as to suggest that ALL graces come from GOD thru her
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DustinsDad
Guest
Not “Savior” - Jesus is the One Savior. Mary, however, was graced by God to participate in His Redemption of Mankind in a singular and unique way - like no other creature has been or ever will be called to.
This was in her “yes” to the Angel Gabriel, in her total yes to God “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word**”**, and in her suffering at the foot of the cross. As it was prophesied at the presentation: “and a sword will pierce through your own soul also”
This shouldn’t really shock you if you think about it - we are all called to participate in Christ’s redemtive work:Romans 16:19-20
For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Collosians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
See, my yes to God participates in God’s work of salvation for my family, my friends, etc. Other people’s yes to God have participated in God’s giving His Salvation to me and my life. Thing is with Mary, her yes to God plays a big part (cooperates with and participates in the salvation) of every single Christian that has ever lived…it’s unique. And if Jesus is our brother and King - then by His grace, by Him giving her to us on the cross, she is our mother and queen.Revelation 12:1,17
And a great portent appeared in heaven, **a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…**Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
It’s a big honor and blessing for her - which is why we call her blessed - as she herself prophesied: “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed**.”**
Jesus is the ultimate one true Savior of course - but we all are called to participate in His saving work:
1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
So in this sense, Mary does save - not apart from Christ, but because she participates in it so uniquely and strongly. Her yes to God brought Jesus to the World and, thus, to each and every Christian that ever lived or ever will live.
No never in place of Christ - that would be heresy.
It means we honor and venerate the mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that we can ask her to pray for us and intercede for us to her Son and Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that as our mother, given to us on the cross, we take her into our hearts and love her - because she loves us. What mother doesn’t love her children?John 19:26-27
When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
By the way - I always thought it rather interesting that it wasn’t until after Our Lord gave us His mother and us to her, that Scripture tells us “all was now finished” - see verse 28.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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TC2
Guest
Again, thank you so much for clarifying further.
I have a better grasp of the meaning now.
Unfortunately, I still believe that this will only
worsen things b/t protestants and Catholics,
as most won’t delve into it far enough to see.
I have a better grasp of the meaning now.
Unfortunately, I still believe that this will only
worsen things b/t protestants and Catholics,
as most won’t delve into it far enough to see.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
You don’t have to believe it and I truly hope it will never become a dogma. It’s not necessary for our salvation and there is not other reason to define it, so why would we ever do it? The only thing that it could bring is confusion, heretical misinterpretations, and harm to whole Church.
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Biblioassistant
Guest
I love Mary and in many ways I am a deeply traditional Catholic, but that word co-redemptrix grates on me deeply. I’ve read almost all the explanations for it and they don’t convince me. Jesus was our reedemer and that’s that.
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JRKH
Guest
Interesting thread.
I opted to post a poll here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213012
As for myself, I feel it is unnecessary, confusing and will be an impediment to evangalization. Regardless of the definitions supplied by the promoters, most people would see this term and see Mary being elevated to parity with Jesus. It would simply beome another source and tool for anti-catholics.
I opted to post a poll here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213012
As for myself, I feel it is unnecessary, confusing and will be an impediment to evangalization. Regardless of the definitions supplied by the promoters, most people would see this term and see Mary being elevated to parity with Jesus. It would simply beome another source and tool for anti-catholics.
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Brendan
Guest
Well of course all Graces come to mankind through Mary. She born Christ and He came into the world through Her.
Christ IS Grace, He doesn’t just 'give" Grace, He IS Grace, His nature is Grace.
So when Mary consented to bring Christ into the world, she consented to all Graces coming into the world.
(and one more point, they fact that some people would be uneasy with a particular Truth should not, and does not, exempt the Church from having to proclaim it)
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