Mary as Fourth Part of the Trinity

[Cristiano]

This is interesting because once I thought of the question if there is any negation of a fourth divine person. For sure Mary was only human thus she is out of the picture. The scriptures never negate a fourth person; however they talk only about three. Considering that that Jesus’ revelation was the last and full public revelation I have to conclude that three is the complete number, thus it cannot be four.

 

[PaulAckermann]

JPII never tried to do any such thing.

However, check this out.:bigyikes:

Right off the bat I can tell this is heresy. The Catholic Church has already stated and any valid private revelation will not add to the doctrine. Valid private revelation would only encourage us to embrace the doctrine that is already taught by the Catholic Church.

In the valid apparitions of the past, the Blessed Virgin Mary would always command the recipient of the apparition to be fully submission to the Church. Our mother would never tell anyone a doctrine that has not already been established by the Church.

That this web site would actually try to change Catholic doctrine show that this is not from God.

 

[rpp]

There is much misunderstanding among non-Catholics and poorly catechized Catholics about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It is my inderstanding that we are to venerate the saints, all the saints, to a certain extent. The Latin word is “dulia” (sp?) I believe. This is part of the “communion of the saints” referred to in the Creed.

Veneration, “dulia”, is **not **worship. I suppose you could say it is a form of sacred respect (warning: non-standard terminology.)

W are to offer only to the Blessed Virgin Marry “hyper-dulia”, the highest form of veneration. Again with the non-standard terminology it would be supreme sacred respect. This is still not worship.

Worship “lartra” (sp?) is reserved for God, all the Persons of the Holy Trinity, alone.

As was noted by other posters, there is a movement to have the Blessed Virgin Mary named “Co-Mediatrix”. Even if this were done, we would still only offer her hyper-dulia.

 

[shannyk]

I think Mary Mediatrix or the fifth Marian Dogma is what this friend is confused about.

As far as the “forth Person of the Trinity” I think that just in saying that it explains itself away

 

[Epistemes]

There is much misunderstanding among non-Catholics and poorly catechized Catholics about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It is my inderstanding that we are to venerate the saints, all the saints, to a certain extent. The Latin word is “dulia” (sp?) I believe. This is part of the “communion of the saints” referred to in the Creed.

Veneration, “dulia”, is **not **worship. I suppose you could say it is a form of sacred respect (warning: non-standard terminology.)

W are to offer only to the Blessed Virgin Marry “hyper-dulia”, the highest form of veneration. Again with the non-standard terminology it would be supreme sacred respect. This is still not worship.

Worship “lartra” (sp?) is reserved for God, all the Persons of the Holy Trinity, alone.

As was noted by other posters, there is a movement to have the Blessed Virgin Mary named “Co-Mediatrix”. Even if this were done, we would still only offer her hyper-dulia.

Semantics aside, praying to our Holy Mother IS praying to our Holy Mother.

I think it gets lost in translation not whether we’re worshipping Mary or not, but why prayers are offered to her. “Why do you pray to Mary?” So I can ask her to pray for me, and strengthen the efficacy of my own prayer!

I think outsiders tend to think, “Oh, is he/she asking Mary for a pot of gold?”

 

[Eireann]

Has anyone heard of this before? What can you tell me about it?

Thanks.
Scout :tiphat:

Would this be him by any chance ? don’t trust him, believe me the mans an idiot, but he gets paid for it.

i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/smfm/nutty_prof_sm.jpg"]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/smfm/nutty_prof_sm.jpg

 

[rpp]

Semantics aside, praying to our Holy Mother IS praying to our Holy Mother.

I think it gets lost in translation not whether we’re worshipping Mary or not, but why prayers are offered to her. “Why do you pray to Mary?” So I can ask her to pray for me, and strengthen the efficacy of my own prayer!

I think outsiders tend to think, “Oh, is he/she asking Mary for a pot of gold?”

Quite correct. Thank you for the amplification. When we pray to the saints, and the Blessed Virgin Mary most of all, we are not worshiping them, we are asking them to join in our prayer. This is exactly the same as asking a friend to join their prayer to ours.

Many protestants, because they do not believe in the communion of saints, believe prayer = worship. A well catechized Catholic understands that prayer = communication when directed toward a saint.

 

[mlcampbell]

I’ve often heard it said that JPII was a little theologically sloppy, and that certainly under Benedict, the fifth Marian dogma would never be realized.

You are talking about the fifth Marian dogma?

JPII was theologically sloppy? In what way?

 

[criffton]

I don’t know much about Marian Devotion, but the idea of her being the Co-Redemptrix is from Mary’s willingness to mother Christ, because of her decision, Christ was able to come into the world, however both Marian devotion and Co-Redemptrix sets of all sorts of bells in the Protestant mind, mostly from ignorance of the subject matter. Also, JPII did use the phrase, but never made an official declaration about it

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have a professor who spoke last night about John Paul II trying to make Mary the fourth part of the Trinity. I said I had never heard of this before, and couldn’t imagine it to be true. The professor went on to say that there was a movement in Europe for this to be declared a doctrine of the Church.

Has anyone heard of this before? What can you tell me about it?

Thanks.
Scout :tiphat:

Your imagination was correct - it is not possible; any believing that Mary was a fourth member of the Trinity would no longer be a Catholic, or a Christian of any kind.​

Your professor may have been getting mixed up with the movement to have the BVM defined to be Mediatrix of all Graces, Co-redemptrix, & Advocate of the People of God. It’s been active in Europe, but AFAIK it’s of US origin. IMCO, it is not at all a good idea - there are plenty of misunderstandings about the Mother of Glod already: why add even more ? Besides, the very notion of a “co-Redemptrix” is dubious

Mary is a creature, & no creature can under any circumstances ever become God. We can be elevated beyond our innate abilities by the activity of the grace of God - but can not ever become God. God cannot create another God - because God is

• infinite &
• indivisible &
• unchangeable &
• unique &
• uncreated:
  so a created God, would not be God at all. It would be a saint, nothing more.

So a fourth member of the Trinity is an impossibility - it would mean there were two gods in Catholicism, God & Mary: which would utterly pervert & destroy the Catholic doctrine of God. Quite apart from being heretical, blasphemous, utterly anti-Christian, & and a sin.

It’s not often one can say, “This is utterly impossible” - but this, for a change, really is. So don’t worry about it. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

That would be a ridiculous doctrine.
JPII did have an enormous respect for Mary, but i still don’t think he would do something like that.

And, in passing, would it still be called a trinity with a fourth part? Wouldn’t it be a quadity or something?

The word you are looking for is, quaternity. ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JPII never tried to do any such thing.

However, check this out.:bigyikes:

That is…“off the wall” - “**Mary is God. Mary Is The Soul Of The Holy Spirit”. **​

---

No, she is not.

Quite apart from anything else, a Divine Person cannot have, or be, a soul. The Holy Spirit is sometimes called “the Soul of the Church” - but that is a metaphor, to express the truth that the Holy Spirit fulfils in the Church functions resembling those of the soul in a Christian.

Besides, a soul is necessary only for material beings. And the Spirit of God is not material; only creatures are “made of” anything. If the Mother of God were the soul of the Spirit of God, the Spirit of God would be neither God nor Spirit. And we would have a Binity, not a Trinity. That, or outright polytheism. ##

 

[apophasis]

So a fourth member of the Trinity is an impossibility - it would mean there were two gods in Catholicism, God & Mary: which would utterly pervert & destroy the Catholic doctrine of God. Quite apart from being heretical, blasphemous, utterly anti-Christian, & and a sin.

Let’s not forget anti-Biblical. It’s through the written Word that we understand God is a Trinity in the first place. It’s when men place their traditions before and above the written Word that such concepts even develop.

 

[mich2]

Your imagination was correct - it is not possible; any believing that Mary was a fourth member of the Trinity would no longer be a Catholic, or a Christian of any kind.​

Your professor may have been getting mixed up with the movement to have the BVM defined to be Mediatrix of all Graces, Co-redemptrix, & Advocate of the People of God. It’s been active in Europe, but AFAIK it’s of US origin. IMCO, it is not at all a good idea - there are plenty of misunderstandings about the Mother of Glod already: why add even more ? Besides, the very notion of a “co-Redemptrix” is dubious

Many were opposed to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception as well as the Assumption of Mary. If this is what God is revealing to us, then, this is what we need to accept.As for the the title Co-redemptrice and Mediatrix of all Grace, there is an apparition of Mary, if authentic, which speaks of such titles as becoming dogma eventually.

ladyofallnations.org/

Mary is a creature, & no creature can under any circumstances ever become God. We can be elevated beyond our innate abilities by the activity of the grace of God - but can not ever become God. God cannot create another God - because God is

• infinite &
• indivisible &
• unchangeable &
• unique &
• uncreated:
  so a created God, would not be God at all. It would be a saint, nothing more.

However, it would be theologically possible for Mary to be declared as having been created in the exact image of God, so that, to see Mary could also mean to see God. Jesus being God by nature, and Mary being like unto God in every way, by grace. This is **not ** the position of the Catholic Church, and so, I don’t want to mislead anyone in thinking this to be part of catholic teaching…but the person of Mary has not been given any limit to her nature by the Church except that she was created by God.

So a fourth member of the Trinity is an impossibility - it would mean there were two gods in Catholicism, God & Mary: which would utterly pervert & destroy the Catholic doctrine of God. Quite apart from being heretical, blasphemous, utterly anti-Christian, & and a sin.

It’s not often one can say, “This is utterly impossible” - but this, for a change, really is. So don’t worry about it. ##

We certainly cannot preach that Mary is God, since God is first and formost the Creator, the Eternal I Am, the Uncreated. However, if the Church does one day promote that Mary was indeed created like unto God in every way, starting by promoting the doctrines of Co-Redemptrice and Mediatrix, I don’t see how we could stand in the way of letting the process occur…“let thy Will be done” ought to be our prayer and wish.

Andre

 

[apophasis]

However, if the Church does one day promote that Mary was indeed created like unto God in every way, starting by promoting the doctrines of Co-Redemptrice and Mediatrix, I don’t see how we could stand in the way of letting the process occur…“let thy Will be done” ought to be our prayer and wish.

Andre

“Thy Will,” or “your will?” His Word, or your “process?”

 

[mommyof4]

However, check this out.:bigyikes:

Yikes! Who are those people? They scare me.

 

[prv]

I have a professor who spoke last night about John Paul II trying to make Mary the fourth part of the Trinity. I said I had never heard of this before, and couldn’t imagine it to be true. The professor went on to say that there was a movement in Europe for this to be declared a doctrine of the Church.

Has anyone heard of this before? What can you tell me about it?

Thanks.
Scout :tiphat:

That is blasphemy. It is Catholic doctrine that all persons in God are all equally God. Mary is not God.

Jesus commanded baptism:

“…in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” We can add nothing at all to this.

 

[prv]

JPII never tried to do any such thing.

However, check this out.:bigyikes:

Did anybody catch that this/these author(s) at the above link called Pope Benedict XVI an “anti-Christ”? This site looks full of Gnostic heresy.

 

[apophasis]

Yikes! Who are those people? They scare me.

They’re Catholics. Remember what Paul wrote:“A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” Error does beget error. I should hope it scares you; to the point of being, in a narrow sense of the word, a “protestant.” Such movements in your church must be publicly protested or they will take hold as “tradition.”

 

[GoldenArrow]

Besides being absolutely ridiculous …

It’s a Dogmatic teaching of the Church, an Infallible teaching, that there is to be no new revelation apart from that which comes to us from Christ and the Apostles. All the Dogmatic teachings of the Church taught to us by the Advocate are supported by the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. That is, all have some sort of biblical basis.

If Mary were declared a fourth person of God, then that would be New Revelation. Such a teaching has no biblical basis. The teaching would no longer be “Apostolic.” Those believing this new teaching would fall outside the 4 marks of the True Church, which are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. The teaching would therefore be an Apostate teaching.

Also, the “Mary is God,” movement, which states Mary’s spirit was the Holy Spirit, falls outside the 4 Marks of the True Church for the very same reason—new Revelation apart from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. This teaching, too, is Apostate.

Besides, it’s a Dogma that Mary is not Divine.

God Bless!