Mary as having authority as the "Queen Mother"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter flameburns623
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Read Scripture, don’t read into Scripture. Mary is not the queen of Heaven. Mary does not have any authoritative role in our Salvation or otherwise. Mary is not the purest realization of the faith. Jesus Christ is. He is the author and finisher of life. Mary played a very blessed role and she is to be honored for it, but she does not have superhuman characteristics and does not play a part in our Salvation. Jesus said, “I am the way the truth and the life and no one shall go onto the Father except through me.”
When Christ died on the cross, He gave His Mother to the whole world!
“Behold your Mother”.

REV. 12 1:5
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. AGAIN, AND A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS ON HER HEAD. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and his throne.


Here is a bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of 12 stars, a crown plainly denotes Queenship.
How much more clearly could Mary’s honors be illustrated?
 
Sorry to break the news to you, but this is irrelevant. Does this mean that you believe that all the prophecies/parallels from Davidic times that Jesus fulfilled are irrelevant? The Old Testament reveals the New Testament. When Jesus quoted the psalm that David wrote (Psalm 21 in the Duoay-Rheims Bible) before He died on the cross, did the bystanders say “hey Jesus, sorry to break the news to you, but that quote came from Davidic times”? In Mat 27:47, it reads: “And some that stood there and heard, said: This man calleth Elias.”. They understood the history of their people, and the fact that the Psalm was being fulfilled in thier presence meant something to them. It meant enough that they considered one of the greatest Old Testament prophets.

Remember 2 Tim 3:16 - “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice…” (emphasis mine).

This doesn’t make any sense to me; if this is not a typo then I have no idea what it is.
Its actually Psalms 22 and its reference is that as soon as he was out of the womb he was the Lords.

Also whenever the words Queen mother are used they are used towards very sinful women, and the actual position of queen mother would be when the king dies and the mother is still alive and the son becomes king, during this time women in general were looked down upon.

Also you made reference to “behold your mother” well lets put it together.

“When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” We see that he tells John that, that is his mother after, she is told that is her son. This also follows when Jesus told his followers while his mother and brothers outside that those inside are his mothers and brothers

"He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.”

As for Revelations not only does the catholic church have a problem calling it divine scripture, but it is referring to the church after all where else do you see the number 12 used? on that note the dragon has 7 crowns, thats 6 more than the woman, and woman can also be translated as bride. remember that stars have been used in reference to the angels of the church. So, after all this deductive reasoning we come to the conclusion that Revelations is impossible for man to understand fully, hence the reason the catholic church did not accept it for many centuries.
 
Jesus was not born in Davidic times, sorry to break the news to you. Also under these circumstances Mary would have to be divine, but Jesus’s brother was not divine in fact he turned from Jesus at first, after all she gave birth to him.
Jesus was a Davidic King, as we see in Matthew chapter 1. Many prophecies regarding the Davidic dynasty were fulfilled with Jesus, the Son of David.
Also whenever the words Queen mother are used they are used towards very sinful women, and the actual position of queen mother would be when the king dies and the mother is still alive and the son becomes king, during this time women in general were looked down upon.
Bathsheba, a woman Catholics would consider a Marian type, wasn’t a sinful woman. She was the first Davidic Queen mother. Solomon actually bows down to her. It was an amazing show of respect for a King to bow to anybody, let alone a woman.
Also you made reference to “behold your mother” well lets put it together.

“When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” We see that he tells John that, that is his mother after, she is told that is her son. This also follows when Jesus told his followers while his mother and brothers outside that those inside are his mothers and brothers

"He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.”
I don’t see how the two verses are connected. Yes, they both involve family members, but how exactly is one used to interpret the other?
I can tell you that the Catholic position is that all of Jesus’ words in the book of John while on the cross had broader meaning for all of us. “Beloved Disciple” was used instead of John’s name because it was meant to apply to all of us.
As for Revelations not only does the catholic church have a problem calling it divine scripture, but it is referring to the church after all where else do you see the number 12 used? on that note the dragon has 7 crowns, thats 6 more than the woman, and woman can also be translated as bride. remember that stars have been used in reference to the angels of the church. So, after all this deductive reasoning we come to the conclusion that Revelations is impossible for man to understand fully, hence the reason the catholic church did not accept it for many centuries.
When did the Church reject the book of Revelations? It was almost not accepted into the canon, but was in the fourth and fifth centuries (the same time as all the other books) and has been accepted ever since (note: the Church never rejected the book). Luther actually rejected the book of Revelations saying “There is too much lacking in this book to call it apostolic or prophetic.” The Church considers Revelations very important and it is actually heretical as a Catholic to say that it isn’t inspired.

As far as the woman is concerned, Catholic teaching states that the literal interpretation (that the women is Mary) doesn’t preclude other interpretations, such as her being the Church, or daughter Zion. The other figures in the passage are real persons (Jesus and the devil) but some also allot them symbolic meaning. For example, some say that the child symbolized the Davidic dynasty, while still considering Him to be Jesus on a literal level. As far as the Dragon having more crowns, I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
Also, here’s a link for you on deductive reasoning:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

There are many neat reasons for believing that the Woman is Mary that are too long to cover here, and good reasons for other Marian beliefs. I would just ask you to try to look at it without blinding bias. Maybe your opinion wont change, but you’ll at least be more learned about the subject. A good book that helped me is (as I already mentioned in this thread) “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn.
 
wow, really? If you wont listen to the truth now you will never listen, you truly are a sinful nation.

As for bathsheba, she was a queen mother, but you will not find the words queen mother in that chapter, so therefore that is not what I am talking about, and remember that that was solomons mother and we are to honor our mother and father.

Actually everytime the word “the disciple whom Jesus loved” is used it refers John.

I never said that revelations wasnt around, but for a long period of time it was considered a gnostic book. theres a saying "where you have 5 rabbi you have 20 interpretations of revelation.

and remember that ONLY catholic teaching states that the woman is Mary
 
Its actually Psalms 22 and its reference is that as soon as he was out of the womb he was the Lords.
Hi FollowTheWay, I specified that it was Psalm 21 in the Duoay-Rheims Bible; the Psalm numbering is slightly different when translated from the Latin vulgate, which the Duoay-Rheims Bible is. And I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.
Also whenever the words Queen mother are used they are used towards very sinful women, and the actual position of queen mother would be when the king dies and the mother is still alive and the son becomes king, during this time women in general were looked down upon.
I would urge you to (re)read 1-2 Samuel and 1-2 Kings with an open mind. There are several instances here of people asking favors of the King by going through his mother. Jeff Cavin’s Great Adventure Bible study goes into them very thoroughly, which is why I suggested this to the OP in the first place. Sorry I don’t have verses at my fingertips, but these examples are in these books.
As for Revelations not only does the catholic church have a problem calling it divine scripture, but it is referring to the church after all where else do you see the number 12 used? on that note the dragon has 7 crowns, thats 6 more than the woman, and woman can also be translated as bride. remember that stars have been used in reference to the angels of the church. So, after all this deductive reasoning we come to the conclusion that Revelations is impossible for man to understand fully, hence the reason the catholic church did not accept it for many centuries.
You and I consider Revelation inspired word of God because the Catholic Church decided it was inspired word of God back the late 300’s. You’re welcome. You have your interpretation of Revelation as you’ve explained it above, and I have mine as I’ve previously explained. Which one is right? Which one has more authority? You have your opinion to back yours up, I have the authority of the Church that Jesus founded to back mine up (so long as I do not go against Her; I’m on my own if I do, which is where you are). The Bible study I mentioned way back when (as well as Scott Hahn’s books and other suggestions mentioned by others) help explain this interpretation in light of the Old Testament queen mother to the OP’s question.
 
When the King is a very busy man why would you not ask the queen to ask the king??

you are truly lost my brother, may you one day see the truth.
 
Mary is just another woman in heaven, there is nothing scriptural saying she is anything more. Revelation 12 doesnt even point to that because the dragon came from the same place and had seven crowns on his head she only had one and that was a crown with 12 twelve stars on her head. By catholic definition we should be worshipping that dragon because he’s crowned better, but thats not the case. The worse thing that a person can do is say that their interpretation of Revelation is the right one, its no different that the rabbi’s during NT time saying that the messiah has not come because he did not come as a ruler.
The Same Scripture specifically points out that the Dragon was thrown down from heaven(at the beginning of time, remembering that the person recieving the Vision has been taken out of time and shown the whole picture). One was thrown down from heaven and went and made war with the Followers of Christ, the other taken up to heaven.

So it’s a moot point.

Also you have to understand that good Biblical Exergesis takes into consideration that the original authors did not put in Chapter breaks. Many biblical scholars of this particular narrative believe the chapter break should have come a few verses earlier when the Vision of heaven and God’s temple begins because of the way chapter 11 flows so smoothly into chapter 12. It’s the same vision continuing.
 
When the King is a very busy man why would you not ask the queen to ask the king??
Scripture doesn’t say that people went to the Queen because the king was busy, that’s your personal conjecture. If you have no desire to understand the role of the queen mother in Davidic times, that’s your choice. No one can open your mind for you.
you are truly lost my brother, may you one day see the truth.
I’m lost because I put some stock in Catholics that were former protestant pastors who know ancient Greek and Hebrew, as well as possess an intimate knowledge of Biblical history and customs (Jeff Cavins and Scott Hahn, where my background on this subject is coming from)? I’m lost because I learn from my church and those within her that know more than I do?

Or am I lost because I don’t agree with you?
 
Its actually Psalms 22 and its reference is that as soon as he was out of the womb he was the Lords.
So…Mary was no longer His mother?
Also whenever the words Queen mother are used they are used towards very sinful women, and the actual position of queen mother would be when the king dies and the mother is still alive and the son becomes king, during this time women in general were looked down upon.
Wow. This reveals a wealth of misinformation and ignorance about history. Yes, there were some Queen Mothers that were deposed from office due to their poor witness. This is actually a testimony to the fact that the office of the Queen Mother was active during the life of the King, and that her office was influential, and therefore damaging if the person occupying it was a poor witness.

If you think that Solomon looked down on his mother, you need to do some more study. Yes, women carried certain roles in society, but when you read Psalms,Proverbs, Judges, the Prophets and the Song of Solomon it is impossible to support the assertion that “women in general were looked down upon”. The disreputable behavior of some women was certainly looked down upon then, just as it is today.
Also you made reference to “behold your mother” well lets put it together.

“When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” We see that he tells John that, that is his mother after, she is told that is her son.
You are missing an essential point. The Gospel of John nowhere identifies the author. This is a deliberate choice on the part of the writer, so that all those who were willing to stand at the foot of His cross with Mary would know that they are a beloved disciple of His.
This also follows when Jesus told his followers while his mother and brothers outside that those inside are his mothers and brothers
What “this” also follows?
"He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.”
Jesus is generous to share His family relationships with all those who will also hear the word of God, and do it. What an honor to be included with the Woman who every generation shall call Blessed!
As for Revelations not only does the catholic church have a problem calling it divine scripture,
There just seems to be no end to the strange things you have been taught about the Catholic Church. Do you know where your Bible came from?
but it is referring to the church after all where else do you see the number 12 used? on that note the dragon has 7 crowns, thats 6 more than the woman, and woman can also be translated as bride. remember that stars have been used in reference to the angels of the church. So, after all this deductive reasoning we come to the conclusion that Revelations is impossible for man to understand fully, hence the reason the catholic church did not accept it for many centuries.
I think your “deductive reasoning” has some serious problems. 😉

Who are those who follow the commandments of the Woman’s Son?
 
When Christ died on the cross, He gave His Mother to the whole world!
“Behold your Mother”.

REV. 12 1:5
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. AGAIN, AND A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS ON HER HEAD. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and his throne.


Here is a bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of 12 stars, a crown plainly denotes Queenship.
How much more clearly could Mary’s honors be illustrated?
Hmmm, Jesus didn’t say that but yet you imply that. Revelation doesn’t mention Mary but yet you imply it. See where this is going?🙂
 
Hmmm, Jesus didn’t say that but yet you imply that. Revelation doesn’t mention Mary but yet you imply it. See where this is going?🙂
To be fair, the Marian biblical evidence is anything but clear-cut, hence the controversy.

However, I believe that the Marian typology is so uncanny, particularly Mary as the antitype of the arc of the covenant (which is one of the arguments for Mary as the woman of revelation) that it makes the Catholic position very strong.

I’ve read many articles, books, and tapes on the subject and came to the conclusion that Marian typology isn’t just conspiracy theory eisegesis, but was fully intended by the inspired scripture writers --that it was part of God’s plan in the scriptures. I respect those who come to a different conclusion.

I’m not sure if you’ve done any reading on the subject by good Catholic authors or not, but I highly recommend you do. The arguments just can’t be fleshed out very well in the space of an internet thread.
 
Hmmm, Jesus didn’t say that but yet you imply that. Revelation doesn’t mention Mary but yet you imply it. See where this is going?🙂
Then what did Christ say? “Behold the woman”? Same thing. And these texts are taken right from Revelation, maybe you need to put your glasses on.🤓
 
Hmmm, Jesus didn’t say that but yet you imply that. Revelation doesn’t mention Mary but yet you imply it. See where this is going?🙂
You sound like some Muslim posters here who deny the divinity of Jesus by using this rationale, ’ … if Jesus is God where in the Bible did Jesus says, “I am God, worship me”?’ They want it said explicitly but knowing very well that it is not in the Bible. But we know that even if it is, they won’t believe it anyway. They would just simply dismiss the Bible as corrrupted.

I agree that the Revelation verses may have multiple meanings and one can have the benefit of doubt. It may be too risky to interpret them specifically. But if we understand them as how the early Christians did, we can be never too wrong. It would be a safer bet than to have a totally new interpretation as modern Christians are trying today. Well, if you completely dismiss the revelation verses as nothing to do with Mary, I can undertsand.

But to dismiss John 19: 26-27 as having no bearing on Mary’s importance to the Christian faith would be to take the Bible without imagination, so to speak.

Really, if we contemplate on the Bible especially in prayer, there is much that it tells us. BTW, do you dismiss John 19:26-27 just because Catholics happen to connect them with the importance of Mary or you really see nothing at all in the verses?

**John 19:26-27
26 Seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing near her, Jesus said to his mother, ‘Woman, this is your son.’
27 Then to the disciple he said, ‘This is your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. **

Think - Mary was not John’s mother, yet he said she was. Then he took her into his home.

We are to imitate our brothers in the faith. If the apostle John could take Mary home because Jesus told him so, what prevents us from doing the same?
 
Then what did Christ say? “Behold the woman”? Same thing. And these texts are taken right from Revelation, maybe you need to put your glasses on.🤓
Mary isn’t mentioned past the book of Acts. You need to put your glasses on.
 
Mary isn’t mentioned past the book of Acts. You need to put your glasses on.
Try Acts 1:14: These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

The implication btw of Acts 2:1, (when the Holy Ghost descended), is that these were the same group who were earlier listed in Acts 1: 13-15, the 120 people gathered together for the election of Matthias. This is further implied by the reference to ‘handmaidens’ in Acts 2:18, which suggests that the Holy Ghost fell on a mixed group of men and women.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: OOPS! Did I misread or did you edit something? I thought the post said that Mary was not mentioned IN the Book of Acts. Mebbe I’m the one who needs classes? 🤓 Sorry for the unnecessary Scripture lesson!
 
When Christ died on the cross, He gave His Mother to the whole world!
“Behold your Mother”.

REV. 12 1:5
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. AGAIN, AND A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS ON HER HEAD. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and his throne.


Here is a bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of 12 stars, a crown plainly denotes Queenship.
How much more clearly could Mary’s honors be illustrated?
Why couldn’t the woman in Rev 12 be someone else than Mary?
 
Why can’t the Messiah in Isaiah be someone else other than Jesus?
:nunchuk:

Ockham’s Razor is misused too often, but in this case it fits. Why introduce this mysterious second woman when there is already a natural suspect?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top