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Leslie_Polley
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I don’t care what your dogma says…I care what the Bible says…I guess when we stand in judgment before Christ we will find out then…that your wrong
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Leslie_Polley
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Yea I can Matt.1:25 And Joseph knew her not till she broght forth her firstborn son; and he called his name Jesus. That is just one example…Now lets talkit one word at a time…Joseph…Marys husband…knew…refers to having sex…her…mary…till…after…she had her first born son Jesus…Now you can dance around that all you like, and most get all hung up on the word till, or until…they forget the words before…you see at one point, he could have sex with Mary…now the Church can call a bull a pig or a dog a cat, and that does not make it so…so believe what you want, scripture is clear.
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Leslie_Polley
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Welll I stand corrected…its not in the Bible so we don’t even have to talk about it or bring it up again…as far as Protestant churches calling "our lady of the immaculate conception…never heard that one…I have never been in one, maybe you have.Exactly, Randy. The Immaculate Conception is a* Catholic* term, defined by Catholics.
Protestants who make up their own defintion of what is the Immaculate Conception are going against the Bible–[SIGN1]for the term “Immaculate Conception” is not in the Bible [/SIGN1](as they correctly point out.)
In fact, I don’t know of many Protestant churches called “Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception.”
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zach_dunn
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There is never anything substantive forthcoming . . .
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zach_dunn
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Oh my gosh, that’s what I call substance! Sorry Randy, I’m gonna have to say Leslie beat you this time . . .
:banghead: Why will you not read what Randy has posted tens of times for you? It never ceases to amaze me the extreme bias of Protestants (yes, there is Catholic bias too, but Catholics will give more support for their arguments than two Bible verses that the person quoting them obviously doesn’t understand) to the point where they won’t even think about what they read . . . :banghead:
PS — Just so you can’t use my words against me (I’m not saying anything about you, it’s happened to me before), I was being sarcastic when I said you beat Randy, you didn’t.
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adriancombe
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Leslie:
if there were - hypothetically, of course - a person who accepted only those leaders who taught what was agreeable to said person - how would one distinguish this person from yourself?
Either you accept the ones Jesus sent, or you don’t.
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zach_dunn
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She was kinda part of the greatest miracle God ever worked . . . but that’s just me reading the Bible . . .
Please give me the verse that says, “then, after Jesus was born, Mary knew man for the first time . . .” You cannot find it because such a verse does not exist. I encourage you to read and re-read post number 51, then think about it for a long while, and pray for God’s continual help in discovering the truth. I know that in time the Holy Spirit will lead you home.
If you say it is truth, then I will assume you agree with it. Agreeing with it would essentially make you not Christian because the heresy of Nestorianism says that the man Jesus was not God in the flesh. How unfortunate for you to deny Christ’s divinity. I highly suggest doing a little research before posting comments like that.
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Odell
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If I was to say I didn’t know my wife before she had her child. Ii would be proving the child is not mine. The purpose of the passage is to prove the virgin birth not that Joseph had relations. Nowhere in the bible does know mean sex it is absolutely ridiculous. No one believed this read the Church fathers you have a new religion just a couple hundred years. I will go with a 2000 year church.
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Odell
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If I was to say I didn’t know my wife before she had her child. Ii would be proving the child is not mine. The purpose of the passage is to prove the virgin birth not that Joseph had relations. Nowhere in the bible does know mean sex it is absolutely ridiculous. No one believed this read the Church fathers you have a new religion just a couple hundred years. I will go with a 2000 year church.
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Randy_Carson
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Always happy to help clear up any confusion. :tiphat:
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JohnMPhilomena
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This is why there are so many different protestant churches. When 100 individuals try to interpret the bible, they will come up with 100 different interpretations. We should read the bible, but use the 2000 year old church for the meaning.
Peace,
John Marie Philomena
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Randy_Carson
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So what? Does that PREVENT God from enabling her to perform miracles NOW? Nope.
You should re-read your Bible. The scriptures never say that Joseph and Mary had sex. If you think otherwise, cut and paste the verse into the space below:
A vow of virginity was not “asked of her” - she offered it to God by her own free will.
It’s one thing to argue with someone who knows what they are talking about but simply disagrees, but it’s quite another to argue with someone who is completely ignorant of basic facts but continues to assert that her errors are correct.
- Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
- Jesus is God.
- Mary is the Mother of God.
Nestorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus existed as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This doctrine is identified with Nestorius (c. 386–c. 451), Patriarch of Constantinople. This view of Christ was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the conflict over this view led to the Nestorian schism, separating the Assyrian Church of the East from the Byzantine Church.
The Assyrian Church of the East refused to denounce Nestorius’ doctrine as heretical, and it has continued to be called “Nestorian” in the West, to distinguish it from other ancient Eastern churches. However, the Church of the East does not regard its doctrine as truly Nestorian, but rather teaches the view of Babai the Great, that Christ has two qnome (essences) which are unmingled and eternally united in one parsopa (personality). According to some interpretations, the origin of this confusion is mostly historical and linguistic: for example, the Greeks had two words for ‘person’, which translated poorly into Syriac, and the meanings of these terms were not even quite settled during Nestorius’ lifetime.
Nestorianism originated in the Church in the 5th century out of an attempt to rationally explain and understand the incarnation of the divine Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as the man Jesus Christ. Nestorianism taught that the human and divine essences of Christ are separate and that there are two persons, the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, which dwelt in the man. In consequence, Nestorians rejected such terminology as “God suffered” or “God was crucified”, because the humanity of Jesus Christ which suffered is separate from his divinity. Likewise, they rejected the term Theotokos (Giver of birth to God/Mother of God) as a title of the Virgin Mary, suggesting instead the title Christotokos (Giver of birth to Christ/Mother of Christ), because in their opinion Mary gave birth to only the human person of Jesus and not the divine.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism
So, are you a Nestorian, Leslie?
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Randy_Carson
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This is not a question of dogma…this is a matter of you being ignorant of basic theological concepts and terminology.
After you educate yourself about the term “Immaculate Conception”, then we can begin to teach you what the Bible says in support of it.
But first things first.
Based on what you have learned in the past few days, does the term “Immaculate Conception” refer to the conception of Mary or the conception of Jesus?
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Randy_Carson
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Thank you, Leslie. I learned these things long ago.
The problem is that the word “until” is crucial to your argument not mine. In other words, YOU need the verse to imply that Joseph had sex with Mary AFTER Jesus was born. However, the teaching of the Apostles handed down through the centuries tells us that this was not the case.
Your word “until” does not PROVE that Joseph had sex with Mary, and the English word “brothers” does not PROVE that Mary had other children.To the contrary, the Aramaic word for “brothers” has a wide range of meaning in the OT and NT as you have already been shown. I note that you have not responded to that.
Therefore, you have nothing to PROVE that Joseph had sex with Mary or that she had other children by him other than your own PROTESTANT DESIRE to poke your finger in the eye of the Catholic Church.
I, on the other hand, have clear, compelling arguments in support of my positions as well as the testimony of countless millions of Christians (Protestants among them) who agree with what the Apostles and an infallible Church have taught:
Mary is the Immaculate Conception and remained ever-virgin.
Now, for the benefit of those who are following along and interested in reading more on the term heos hou in Matthew 1:25, here is an article that is DEVASTATING to Leslie’s position:
Heos Hou and the Protestant Polemic
By John Pacheco
catholic-legate.com/articles/heoshou.html
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Leslie_Polley
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Jesus repremanded his mother and not to embarrass anyone He did it …however there is no place in scripture that she EVER did that again to Jesus. Nor did she dare to ask. Not one place. If this was a norm it would have been repeated, but when Jesus repremanded someone, the act was not repeated…He was not a milk sop. He had an agenda and that is what he did.
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Leslie_Polley
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I know you were being sarcastic you big silly…I was not trying to beat him at anything. I showed him in the Bible the proof, weather it be 2 scriptures or 20. Mine came from the Word of God so I really don’t care what you think…I am so sorry that I will not conform to your way of thinking…been there done that. I hope you don’t hurt your head.Oh my gosh, that’s what I call substance! Sorry Randy, I’m gonna have to say Leslie beat you this time . . .
:banghead: Why will you not read what Randy has posted tens of times for you? It never ceases to amaze me the extreme bias of Protestants (yes, there is Catholic bias too, but Catholics will give more support for their arguments than two Bible verses that the person quoting them obviously doesn’t understand) to the point where they won’t even think about what they read . . . :banghead:
PS — Just so you can’t use my words against me (I’m not saying anything about you, it’s happened to me before), I was being sarcastic when I said you beat Randy, you didn’t.
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Leslie_Polley
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I do accept those that Jesus has called…operative word…called…You elect and send…how many do you think are actually called by God…Not many, on either side. There are alot of disagreeable things thaught, things that stung and were hard to take at times, but they were taught for a reason…Just as when God rebukes you…you learn and don’t do it again. I am only concerned with the Truth being taught…
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Leslie_Polley
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I cannot make it any cleared…and I will not try. I gave you the verses, I explained the words and you still don’t get it. The Pharesees were the same as you, and Jesus had nothing to do with them. Yet he died for them. Interesting isn’t it. You see the Word of God and yet you have no idea what you are lookinng at or reading. I hope God opens your eyes. Mary gave birth to Jesus…at THAT time she was still a virgin. I am so sorry if it blows your image of her to know that she was a wife to Joseph and KNEW him…Had sex with hi.
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Leslie_Polley
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Yea, your right in the fact the she was part of the birth of Jesus. And then her job was done. Then she became a normal housewife of the day and continured to live. Jesus did the rest, NOT Mary.
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adriancombe
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Please answer the question posed.
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