Mary as Immaculate Conception

[JohnMPhilomena]

Jesus repremanded his mother and not to embarrass anyone He did it …however there is no place in scripture that she EVER did that again to Jesus. Nor did she dare to ask. Not one place. If this was a norm it would have been repeated, but when Jesus repremanded someone, the act was not repeated…He was not a milk sop. He had an agenda and that is what he did.

Jesus did not reprimand his mother. Now you’re making stuff up. He told her it was not his time yet and then he did her bidding anyway. The miracle of the wedding at Cana shows us that nothing that Mary requests of Jesus will be refused.

 

[guanophore]

No thats fine...The hail Mary was a greeting fom Elizabeth to Mary...The second half, Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners.....is not in the Bible at all...man added it.  So the Hail Mary was never a real prayer to begin with.

This is quite astonishing. It seems to imply that man cannot add any prayers to his interaction with God, or they will not be "real prayers’. So much for the prayer of the heart! Let’s see, repitition is wrong, so we cant repeat any scriptures,…

And adding words from the heart are “man made”, so they are wrong…What kind of prayer is left?

Why would you say in Jesus name when you are not praying to Him…that is a direct prayer to Mary…which is wrong.

Leslie, dear sister in Christ, you seem to be confusing asking others for their prayers with worship. I agree, worshipping any but God alone is wrong. But to pray means to ask. It is not wrong to ask others to pray.

I do not worship Mary.  I worship only God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit .

This is Catholic, and it is a good thing, because anything else would be idolatry!

So that is who I pray to, and yes I always end it, in Jesus name…because He is our ONLY mediator in the Bible. Thats what the Word says, so thats what Ido. I hope I answered your question…God Bless

Actually, there are plenty of other mediators in the Bible. However, only Jesus can mediate our eternal salvation.

 

[guanophore]

to John!

How do you know that was John?

 

[guanophore]

Not really…you give the scripture and then try to make it fit into your meaning…do what you must to be happy…you are still wrong.

Leslie, the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. When you take it out of context (the Catholic Church) the meaning gets skewed.

We do understand the scriptures through the faith of the Apostles, deposited to the Church.

 

[guanophore]

There is never anything substantive forthcoming . . .

I think the vast vaccuum of knowledge about the Catholic faith is quite subtantive. Is that an oxymoron?

there is substantive hostility toward the catholic faith, and Catholics. Does that count?

 

[guanophore]

Right but it does say Joseph…KNEW Mary…that means they had sex

No, it does NOT say this. On the contrary, it says “he knew her NOT”.

He can and did…Mary WAS born with sin, Jesus was not…God can and did do it all.

She was not, and neither was John the Baptist.

I submit to the authority as long as it lines up with what Christ says

This does present some problem for you, does it not? All you are left with is your own authority (how you understand the scriptures), because you reject those He set in authority over you.

I don’t care what your dogma says…I care what the Bible says…I guess when we stand in judgment before Christ we will find out then…that your wrong

I think this is the source of the problem, Leslie. Doctrine is to be received from those to whom it was committed. When one begins to say “I don’t care”, then one is left open to receive a different gospel.

 

[guanophore]

Yea I can Matt.1:25 And Joseph knew her not till she broght forth her firstborn son; and he called his name Jesus. That is just one example…Now lets talkit one word at a time…Joseph…Marys husband…knew…refers to having sex…her…mary…till…after…she had her first born son Jesus…Now you can dance around that all you like, and most get all hung up on the word till, or until…they forget the words before…you see at one point, he could have sex with Mary…now the Church can call a bull a pig or a dog a cat, and that does not make it so…so believe what you want, scripture is clear.

Jesus repremanded his mother and not to embarrass anyone He did it …however there is no place in scripture that she EVER did that again to Jesus. Nor did she dare to ask. Not one place. If this was a norm it would have been repeated, but when Jesus repremanded someone, the act was not repeated…He was not a milk sop. He had an agenda and that is what he did.

No, Leslie. There is no record in Scripture of Jesus ever “reprimanding” His mother. YOu are reading your 20th century understanding into the passage.

Jesus called Mary “Woman”, the title He gave to the first Mother of all LIving. Mary is the new Eve.

In fact, you have no idea how many special favors and miracles Jesus did for His mother before this time. In fact, she seemed awfully confident that He was going to do something!

If you also believe He had an agenda, what was it? Why did he turn the water into wine?

 

[guanophore]

I do accept those that Jesus has called…operative word…called…You elect and send…how many do you think are actually called by God…Not many, on either side. There are alot of disagreeable things thaught, things that stung and were hard to take at times, but they were taught for a reason…Just as when God rebukes you…you learn and don’t do it again. I am only concerned with the Truth being taught…

And how do you determine those who are called?

If you are really concerned with the Truth, Leslie, then you will cleave to the pillar and ground of the Truth.

 

[guanophore]

I I showed him in the Bible the proof, weather it be 2 scriptures or 20. Mine came from the Word of God so I really don’t care what you think…I am so sorry that I will not conform to your way of thinking…been there done that. I hope you don’t hurt your head.

Leslie, your perceptions of the Scriptures are only proof that you understand them separately from what the Apostles believed and taught.

You have not conformed to Catholic teaching Leslie. It is clear from your posts that you never understood it.

 

[guanophore]

Yea, your right in the fact the she was part of the birth of Jesus. And then her job was done. Then she became a normal housewife of the day and continured to live. Jesus did the rest, NOT Mary.

That is very curious. I wonder why the gospel accounts show her travelling with Jesus, taking care of His needs? I wonder why the Scriptures record that she followed HIm all the way to the foot of the cross? I wonder what she was doing there in the upper room?

Maybe it was her clone? The REAL Mary was at home with all her other kids.

 

[zach_dunn]

Yea, your right in the fact the she was part of the birth of Jesus. And then her job was done. Then she became a normal housewife of the day and continured to live. Jesus did the rest, NOT Mary.

Your final conclusion is essentially a non sequitur, I never once said (or even implied) that Mary went through the passion or saved us from sin, I know (and the Catholic Church knows and teaches) that Jesus Christ is our only Savior. What I was saying is that you cannot provide a verse from the Bible saying that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Jesus’ birth. You can not provide Scriptural evidence because it never happened, therefore there would be no Scripture saying it did happen. I don’t know why you say she “continued to live,” that doesn’t make sense, what are you getting at?

Also, I noticed that you did not deny holding the views of Nestorius, do you agree with him?

 

[zach_dunn]

I know you were being sarcastic you big silly…I was not trying to beat him at anything. I showed him in the Bible the proof, weather it be 2 scriptures or 20. Mine came from the Word of God so I really don’t care what you think…I am so sorry that I will not conform to your way of thinking…been there done that. I hope you don’t hurt your head.

You did not give “proof.” You gave cursory justifications for your own previously held beliefs. This is quite evident from the fact that the biblical data far more supports the Catholic teaching than your belief. Our position comes from the word of God too, what does that mean? If we both draw conclusions from this text, which is completely inspired by God, we must have the correct teaching since it comes from the word of God, pay no never-mind to the fact that the two beliefs are completely opposed to each other . . . you cannot convince anyone of your opinions because, when it comes down to it, everyone know you don’t have the authority to interpret the Bible, definitively, correctly, and authoritatively.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I cannot make it any cleared…and I will not try. I gave you the verses, I explained the words and you still don’t get it. The Pharesees were the same as you, and Jesus had nothing to do with them. Yet he died for them. Interesting isn’t it. You see the Word of God and yet you have no idea what you are lookinng at or reading. I hope God opens your eyes. Mary gave birth to Jesus…at THAT time she was still a virgin. I am so sorry if it blows your image of her to know that she was a wife to Joseph and KNEW him…Had sex with hi.

Once again, Leslie makes an assertion that she THINKS she can or has proved. However, she has not interacted with my posts regarding Matthew 1:25, and the verse does not prove that Joseph had sex with Mary.

Then she goes on to claim that Catholics “have no idea what [we] are looking at or reading”.

Talk about irony.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Leslie:

if there were - hypothetically, of course - a person who accepted only those leaders who taught what was agreeable to said person - how would one distinguish this person from yourself?

Either you accept the ones Jesus sent, or you don’t.

I did NOT say agreeable, I said the Word of God…It is what it is, agree with it in whole or throw it away.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Leslie, your perceptions of the Scriptures are only proof that you understand them separately from what the Apostles believed and taught.

You have not conformed to Catholic teaching Leslie. It is clear from your posts that you never understood it.

It proves only that since they are in the Word that I do believe them…where are you comeing from? I did understand it, I disagee with it…

 

[Leslie_Polley]

That is very curious. I wonder why the gospel accounts show her travelling with Jesus, taking care of His needs? I wonder why the Scriptures record that she followed HIm all the way to the foot of the cross? I wonder what she was doing there in the upper room?

Maybe it was her clone? The REAL Mary was at home with all her other kids.

I know that they talked about Mary Magdilane…but not Jesus Mother. Please be so kind as to show me those scriptures that detail his mother caring for him…Yeas she was at the foot of the cross, why won’t His mother be ther. Yes that is in the word…but she just stood there and mourned as did Mary Margdilane and John. The other brave apostles rand and hid, including Peter…intersecting huh. You would think that the “rock” as you refer to him would be big and brave and not leave Jesus side…where was this rock…Mine Rock was hanging from the Cross.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Your final conclusion is essentially a non sequitur, I never once said (or even implied) that Mary went through the passion or saved us from sin, I know (and the Catholic Church knows and teaches) that Jesus Christ is our only Savior. What I was saying is that you cannot provide a verse from the Bible saying that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Jesus’ birth. You can not provide Scriptural evidence because it never happened, therefore there would be no Scripture saying it did happen. I don’t know why you say she “continued to live,” that doesn’t make sense, what are you getting at?

Also, I noticed that you did not deny holding the views of Nestorius, do you agree with him?

I have NO idea who Nestorious is,so I can hardly have or agree with his belifes. I have given the verses that prove they had sex over and over. If you don’t have it by now you are blind.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know that they talked about Mary Magdilane…but not Jesus Mother. Please be so kind as to show me those scriptures that detail his mother caring for him…Yeas she was at the foot of the cross, why won’t His mother be ther. Yes that is in the word…but she just stood there and mourned as did Mary Margdilane and John. The other brave apostles rand and hid, including Peter…intersecting huh. You would think that the “rock” as you refer to him would be big and brave and not leave Jesus side…where was this rock…Mine Rock was hanging from the Cross.

Leslie-

You clearly misunderstand the fact that the imagery of “rock” can be applied differently in different passages. But that’s off topic.

Your own rhetorical question can be asked of you. You wrote: “why won’t [sic] His mother be ther. [sic]”

Well, why wouldn’t His mother care for her own son if she travelled with Him or when He was in His own home town?

Finally, let me point out that this line of argument has nothing to do with the fact that Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin by a singular privilege granted to her by God - the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

You did not give “proof.” You gave cursory justifications for your own previously held beliefs. This is quite evident from the fact that the biblical data far more supports the Catholic teaching than your belief. Our position comes from the word of God too, what does that mean? If we both draw conclusions from this text, which is completely inspired by God, we must have the correct teaching since it comes from the word of God, pay no never-mind to the fact that the two beliefs are completely opposed to each other . . . you cannot convince anyone of your opinions because, when it comes down to it, everyone know you don’t have the authority to interpret the Bible, definitively, correctly, and authoritatively.

everyone is a bit overstated…you may thing that I do not have the authority to interpret the Bible, but I think you should take that us with God. There is no…everyone or no one, just remember that when speeking. You cannot blanket things. The Holy Spirit is right here, as that is who Jesus left for us to depend on on this earth, and He seems to keep things in good order…but thanks for your oponion…and you do know what they say about those.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Once again, Leslie makes an assertion that she THINKS she can or has proved. However, she has not interacted with my posts regarding Matthew 1:25, and the verse does not prove that Joseph had sex with Mary.

Then she goes on to claim that Catholics “have no idea what [we] are looking at or reading”.

Talk about irony.

I have answered you inumerable times…But he had no union with her UNTIL SHE GAVE BIRTH TO A SON…are you totally disreguarding the word until…you cannot open your presants UNTIL Christmas. You cannot have desert UNTIL you eat your food, you cannot watch TV UNTIL you do your chorses…You cannot have sex with your wife UNTIL Jesus is born…for crying out loud. You may wassnt to keep her a perpetual virgin but she was not, or Joseph would have just been her unich…He was her husband. and They DID have SEX after Christ was born. Now once AGAIN I have answered you question…