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Leslie_Polley
Guest
What to you is proof? Lets scale this in a little bit…I will be glad to once I know what YOU consider proof.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Correct. You are ignorant of the fact that the early Christian Church faced the very heresy that you claim as your own belief and rejected it in the fifth century. So, while you are not formally embracing Nestorianism, you are nonetheless professing the very false ideas that Nestorius promoted.
Matthew 1:24-25
24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
We know what you believe - the word “know” means to have sex. We know that you believe that “until” means they did it later. Yes, we see how you would arrive at this conclusion from an uninformed reading of the text. However, we have already explained to you why this superficial understanding is in error.
If you wish to discuss the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, please begin a new thread. This thread concerns the Immaculate Conception of Mary (not Jesus).
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
Are you giving and oritory…"Once again, Leslie makes and…are you writing to the masses, are there others with you…Once again, Leslie makes an assertion that she THINKS she can or has proved. However, she has not interacted with my posts regarding Matthew 1:25, and the verse does not prove that Joseph had sex with Mary.
Then she goes on to claim that Catholics “have no idea what [we] are looking at or reading”.
Talk about irony.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
When I am speaking to those who are following this thread, I refer to you in the third person.
When I am speaking to you, you will know.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
No, you have explained your assertion which is fair, but you have not PROVEN that Joseph and Mary had sex since Matthew was not really in a position to “know” what Joseph and Mary did or did not do in the privacy of their own home.
Now, in response to your examples above, I offer my own:
After watching my grandfather die of lung cancer, my mother gave up smoking and never smoked again until the day she died.
Did she resume smoking after she died? :nope:
After narrowly escaping an automobile accident, my uncle never touched another drop of alchohol until the day he died.
Did he fall of the wagon once he was dead? :nope:
How 'bout some scriptural examples?
Genesis 8:7
The raven “did not return TILL the waters were dried up…” Did the raven ever return?
Deuteronomy 34:6 (Knox)
No one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” But we know that no one has known it since that day either.
1 Maccabees 5:54
“…not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace.” Were Judas Maccabeus and his troops killed when they returned?
Luke 1:80
“And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.” The Greek word translated “until” in this passage is heos, the same word used in Matthew 1:25. The child spoken of is John the Baptist who, after as well as before he appeared in public, resided in the desert (cf. Matt. 3:1, Mark 1:3,4; Luke 3:2).
Romans 8:22
“…the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now.” Is it still groaning?
1 Corinthians 15:25
“For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet.” After all enemies are put away, will Christ be reigning?
Ephesians 4:12-13
“…for the equipping…for the work of ministry… for the edifying…TILL we all come to the unity of the faith…” Once we become unified, will equipping, ministry, and edification still be necessary?
Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’”? After that time, the angels (or Jesus) could get up again?
1 Timothy 4:13
“Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.” After I arrive you won’t need to do any of those things?
1 Timothy 6:14
“…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing…” When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments?
Revelation 2:25-26
“But hold fast what you have TILL I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works UNTIL the end, to him I will give power…” Should we stop holding fast and stop obeying when Jesus returns?
In Conclusion:
The word “until” (Gr. heos hou) does not require cessation of the past action.
This was presented to you previously, and you have not bothered to read the article which I referred you to:
Heos Hou and the Protestant Polemic
By John Pacheco
catholic-legate.com/articles/heoshou.html
An exhaustive explanation of the Greek phrase heos hou [until] found in Matthew 1:24-25.
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
You know what is sad…when you follow the teaching other than the Bible blindly because of one church or the other. If the teaching do not line up with the word of God…then they are wrong.
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
I did not know this was your foum and you personally addressed those on it…and like manner, when I am talking to you you will know it…I think your silly.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
That would be sad, but Catholics have the advantage of following BOTH the Word of God AND the infallible interpretation of the Word of God as found withing the teachings of the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter the rock.
Regarding ideas that do not line up with the Word of God, we know that some non-Catholics baptize infants while others reject infant baptism. Clearly, they cannot both be right, yet they both claim to be following the “Bible Alone”. Thus, going by the “Bible Alone” is no guarantee that one will remain in the truth.
That’s why Jesus left a living Church, and not a book, as the pillar and foundatin of truth.
Now, let me remind you again that THIS thread is on the Immaculate Conception of Mary (not Jesus).
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I look forward to hearing something more substantive than your personal opinions.
You could respond to my post #318, for example.
Thanks.
:coffeeread:
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guanophore
Guest
I am coming from the Church founded by Christ, built upon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. From the Church to whom He said “he who receives you, receives me, and he who rejects you, rejects me”. You have rejected those whom God put in authority over you.
No, you do not understand Catholic teaching. I am sorry that you were so poorly catechized. I was too. It can be overcome. One need not wallow in ignorance.
ps, happy Jesus’ birthday!
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
I will answer each scripture, but not without my Bible. However, you prooved what UNTIL meant…There is and end and a change will take place…UNTIL we write again…have a good day
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guanophore
Guest
I doubt that she “just stood there”. The prophet told her a sword would pierce her own heart also. She was praying.
If she did such a good job raising other kids, why were they not there with her, while their criminal brother was put to death? Why did she have to be put up for adoption?
It is a clear commentary that Peter was a Rock only because God made Him one, not because he came by it naturally.
What would have to change for you if you admitted that Jesus made Peter into a Rock?
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
UNTIL…Prep> 1. Up to the time of: We danced UNTIL dawn…2. Before (a specified time). She could’t leave UNTIL Friday. conj. 1. Up to the time that: we walked UNTIL it got dark. 2. Before : you cannot leave UNTIL your work is finished. 3. To the point or extent that: I talked UNTIL I was hoarse. Now this is the Dictionary, not me…
Until at dawn, we stopped dancing…UNTIL Friday she left…Until…it got dark and then stoped. I beleave this was one of my examples…UNTIL work was done…after it was done you could leave…UNTIL Jesus was born…Then they could have sex…If You do not understand this I have no other way of evplaining it, because I used the Bible and the Dictionary and examples including yours…so you won’t get it UNTIL the Lord comes.
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guanophore
Guest
It will behoove you to read about him, Leslie. You are espousing the same heresy he did, one which the Church already refuted in the early years. It happened just the same way! He read the scriptures apart from the Apostolic Teaching that produced them,and arrived at a misunderstanding.
The word “until” in this passage does not imply any actions that came after it. I understand this is hard for you to accept, but Mary remained a perpetual virgin.
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
Use a small lettter when refering to Peter as a rock, Jesus is the only Rock you capitolize. If God made him the rock, then that should answer it…He should have been there, but he was a coward. Jesus is the ONLY Rock.I doubt that she “just stood there”. The prophet told her a sword would pierce her own heart also. She was praying.
Yes she just stood there and wept and I am very sure it felt as thoght a sowrd pierce her heart, but and acutual one did not because absolutly no detail was given of her other she was at the cross. As a mother I can only imagine the grief she suffered, as have other mothers. Remember Her Son was risen and she did see Him again before His assention into heaven. Other mothers must wait till they get to heaven to see their children.
If she did such a good job raising other kids, why were they not there with her, while their criminal brother was put to death? Why did she have to be put up for adoption?
When speaking of CHrist, sarcasum is not apropriate…us it with me, but not Him…I have no idea where his brothers or sisters where, probably hiding with the apostles. I am sorry where does it say she put them up for adoption…I must have missed that.
It is a clear commentary that Peter was a Rock only because God made Him one, not because he came by it naturally.
What would have to change for you if you admitted that Jesus made Peter into a Rock?
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guanophore
Guest
We are not not disregarding the passage, Leslie. We just know it does not mean what you want to make it mean, because we know Mary was a perpetual virgin.
I agree that many times, “until” has implications for what happens after. Sometimes, it does not, as you have been shown. This passage is one of those that does not have implications for what happened after.
It is not that Catholics “want to keep her” one way or the other. We must preserve the deposit of faith as it was left to the Church. We are not at liberty to change what was committed to us. It is a whole, seamless garment of faith. We cannot start unravelling it just to satisfy the nogrosities of the Modern American Evangelcals who have no knowledge of their own family history.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
You have demonstrated ONE way of using the word “until”, but you have not proved that “until” NECESSARILY REQUIRES cessation of the action described which is what I have proved.
Consequently, Matthew 1:25 proves nothing regarding sexual union between Joseph and Mary.
At this point, you have your own preference and opinion concerning what the passage means.
I have an exhaustive study of the Greek use of the term heos hou as found in scriptures, the constant teaching of the infallible Catholic Church, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and the beliefs of the Protestant Reformers.
This is no contest.
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adriancombe
Guest
You are grossly mistaken. Jesus’ words here are not a reprimand but an expresion of reverence with an undertone of concern or fear. From a Bible study I did for our parish:
What to you and to me? (Ti emoi kai soi)’ *is a very specific idiom. *It is used by the NT writers because it was used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew idiom (Mach Liy Walak Kiy - מה לי־ ולך כי ). *It is found in Mk 1:24, Mark 5:7, Matthew 8:29, Luke 8:28, Judges 11:12, 2 Samuel 16:10 and 19:22, 1 Kings 17:18, 2 Kings 3:13, 2 Chronicles 35:21.
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Mk 1:24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
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Mk 5:7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!”
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1 Kings 17:18 She said to Elijah, “What do you have against me, man of God? Did you come to remind me of my sin and kill my son?”
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Judges 11:12 Then Jephthah sent messengers to the Ammonite king with the question: “What do you have against us that you have attacked our country?”
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In each of these instances, the speaker is acknowledging the power and/or authority of the interlocutor to inflict serious agony, death, grief and/or loss. *This is difficult to translate. *If you look at different translations, you see different biases because Mary is involved, but no clear concept that the translators ‘get it’. *They are grasping at straws. *We might be tempted to render it as ‘I hope you will leave me alone, but I know I have little real choice but to go along with you.’ *I don’t think there is a good way to translate this saying into English.
*
Based on this, combined with the images of sacrifice in the passage, we can conclude that Jesus is aware that by starting His public ministry, He is inexorably starting down the path that will lead to His Passion and Death. *This also means that She is encouraging Him to ‘get on with it already’ – hence His reluctant ‘My hour has not yet come.’
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adriancombe
Guest
Is that suppose to be an answer? You are distinct from said hypothetical person in that you claim your interpretation is the word of God? Ridiculous. ALL heretics CLAIM their interpretation is “the word of God”. The question was, how do I know whose interpretation is correct?
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zach_dunn
Guest
You said yourself that is beliefs, Nestorianism, are true in post number 264. What you believe can be outlined in my post number 273. I hope you recant your beliefs and become Catholic, the true faith!
You have not given one verse that says “then Joseph knew Mary,” or anything to that effect, you have no proof whatever. If you would really like to be Christ-like (your image of Christ anyway), you would — as you said — “die for those Pharisaical Catholics, despite their inability to understand the word of God.” “Die” being a metaphor for biting the bullet and giving your “proof” again.
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