Mary as Immaculate Conception

[Leslie_Polley]

I never said she did, and there’s really no way to sugar-coat what I have to say to you:

Because you are IGNORANT of what the dogma is about, you keep making foolish assumptions and continue believing false ideas.

Jesus’ divinity did not come from Mary. However, Jesus IS God, and Mary IS His mother.

Therefore, Mary IS the Mother of God.

Stop typing and start reading.

Randy, because I do not agree with you does not mean that I do not read. I read all the time and love it. I guess the thing you do not understand is, number one…I am not ignorant…I do not care what the dogma is about. I care what the Bible has to say about it. I do not make foolish assumptions, and because I do not believe what you do, you say my ideas are false… Yes Jesus is God, but He is not the creator God…that is His Father. He is the Son of God. Now if you do not think that He is the Son of God, then we have a really big problem. When He was on the cross God the Father turned his face from Him…One in heaven and one on the cross. When Jesus bore our sins, God could not look on Him…So I know Jesus is God, but His person is the Son of God. Thank you for being concered about my reading time however, I will continue to enjoy both.

 

[adriancombe]

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Heb. 9:15:, 12:24

I think that it is exceedingly clear in 1 Tim…2:5 Now I know you will twist this until you make lemonade, but the words can not be altered.

It is clear to me but apparently not to you. You are the one who is twisting it. The context has other mediators. You have to ignore the context to make it mean what your think it should mean, which is the opposite of the plain meaning of the passage.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Wrong again, Leslie.

John 19:25-27
25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Well it still could have been for the same reason…His mother was gone and He wanted John cared for as well. I guess I can come up with…what if’s too…

 

[Leslie_Polley]

It is clear to me but apparently not to you. You are the one who is twisting it. The context has other mediators. You have to ignore the context to make it mean what your think it should mean, which is the opposite of the plain meaning of the passage.

I’m sorry, I thought it was really plain…however nothing on here is ever just what it is…is it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well it still could have been for the same reason…His mother was gone and He wanted John cared for as well. I guess I can come up with…what if’s too…

You’re swinging wildly and missing badly at this point.

May I again suggest that you stop typing and spend more time reading some good books?

Alternatively, you could ask questions and actually reflect upon the answers given here by people who have read good books.

Just a thought since not much else is being accomplished here…

 

[adriancombe]

I’m sorry, I thought it was really plain…however nothing on here is ever just what it is…is it.

The context is clear. Why would Paul direct us to pray for others if ‘one Mediator’ meant ‘only’? He wouldn’t. God does not contradict Himself.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, because I do not agree with you does not mean that I do not read. I read all the time and love it. I guess the thing you do not understand is, number one…I am not ignorant…

Leslie, you have previously asserted with great confidence that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus’ conception in the womb of Mary. Additionally, you have no idea who Nestorius was and why Mary was declared to be the Mother of God. From this, I beg to differ with your assertion that you are not ignorant of the subject matter under discussion.

I do not care what the dogma is about.

Then why are you spending so much time in a thread devoted to discussion of something that you don’t care about?

I care what the Bible has to say about it. I do not make foolish assumptions, and because I do not believe what you do, you say my ideas are false…

I say that some of your ideas are false because they are simply out of sync with orthodox Christianity.

Yes Jesus is God, but He is not the creator God…that is His Father. He is the Son of God. Now if you do not think that He is the Son of God, then we have a really big problem. When He was on the cross God the Father turned his face from Him…One in heaven and one on the cross. When Jesus bore our sins, God could not look on Him…So I know Jesus is God, but His person is the Son of God. Thank you for being concered about my reading time however, I will continue to enjoy both.

In closing, let me simply say that it is evident that you are unfamiliar with the issues and concepts surrounding the doctrines that you have denied in this thread. It is also evident that you have no interest to listening to what anyone has to say to you that is contrary to what you believe. Consequently, if you cannot hear what we have to say, find a good book on the subject and EDUCATE YOURSELF so that you may agree or disagree with us more knowledgably.

You may have the last word.

 

[Good_Fella]

The context is clear. Why would Paul direct us to pray for others if ‘one Mediator’ meant ‘only’? He wouldn’t. God does not contradict Himself.

Indeed, the Greek word for “one” is heis, not monos, or else the apostle would have contradicted himself in his letter to Timothy. St. Paul intends to tell us that Christ is the principal Mediator, who alone by his redemptive merits allows us to participate in his mediation. Jesus mediates in strict justice, whereas the faithful mediate by right of friendship with God. St. James teaches us that God hears the prayers of a righteous person. He listened to the prayers of his lawgiver and the prophets when they interceded on behalf of the Israelites, although they were not divine persons. The Blessed Virgin Mary’s unique mediation in heaven is effective in proportion to the fulness of grace she was bestowed with at her conception and the final consummation of this grace at the end of her earthly life as a result of her predestination to the divine maternity, and especially because of this singular favour. St. Paul must have fully appreciated our Lady’s intercessory power when he laid the foundations for the theology of human mediation. He could never have imagined that her maternal prerogative should somehow call into question the sovereignty of God and the primary efficacy of Christ’s mediation. After all, the apostle teaches us that the divine Word intercedes for us before God in his sacred humanity.

“Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain.”
St. Epiphanius (ante A.D. 403)

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[zach_dunn]

She did not preceed God, so the best she could be would be the mother of the Son of God. If she was the Mother of God, she would have had to creat God, so in essense, she would be God…which she is not…and I realise never claimed to be.

That’s a familiar tune . . . Protestants can never come with anything new, there is nothing to keep it “fresh:”

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

Taken from here, you should read the rest; the use of the fathers proves this dogma was clearly believed in the early Church. Also:

By saying Mary is the Mother of God, the Catholic Church is not saying that Mary is the source *of the divine nature among the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity, nor is she the source of the divine nature of the second Person. But she doesn’t have to be in order to be the Mother of the second Person of the Blessed Trinity incarnate. Perhaps an analogy using normal human reproduction will help clarify the truth of the matter. My wife is the mother of my son, Timmy. But this does not mean she is the source of Timmy’s immortal soul. God directly and immediately created his soul as he does with every human being (see Eccl. 12:7). However, we do not conclude then that Valerie is merely “the mother of Timmy’s body.” She is Timmy’s mother, period. She did not give birth to a body; she gave birth to a human person who is a body/soul composite: Timmy.

Analogously, though Mary did not provide Jesus with either his divine nature or his immortal human soul, she is still his Mother because she did not give birth to a body, a soul, a nature, or even two natures—she gave birth to a Person. And that one Person is God. The conclusion to the whole matter is inescapable. Just as many of the more traditional Protestants would confess with us as Catholics: If Jesus Christ is one, eternal and unchangeable divine person—God—and Mary is his mother, then Mary is the Mother of that one, eternal and unchangeable person—God.*

Taken from here, this is another really good article.

 

[zach_dunn]

Then why are you spending so much time in a thread devoted to discussion of something that you don’t care about?

And what a very frequently occurring contradiction it is!

 

[PRmerger]

Leslie, you have previously asserted with great confidence that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus’ conception in the womb of Mary. Additionally, you have no idea who Nestorius was and why Mary was declared to be the Mother of God. From this, I beg to differ with your assertion that you are not ignorant of the subject matter under discussion.

In addition, while claiming to be a well educated Catholic young lady at a Catholic boarding school, she has proffered these tidbits of misinformation:

I was always taught that if the Pope said it that was it…

Now I will say this one more time Randy. I am typing slowly. The Catholic church teaches Mary was ASSUMMED into heaven, BEFORE she died.

you don’t even consider us His followers.

**Originally Posted by PRmerger **
So can you tell me what parts of the Mass are from Scripture, Leslie?

Leslie_Polley:

No where…

[SIGN1]All examples of INCORRECT or misinformed Catholic teaching.[/SIGN1]

Now, since Leslie is on my ignore list :extrahappy: I’ll have to leave the rest of you fine Catholics to straighten out her voluminous IGNORANCE of the faith she claims she knew so well.

 

[Louemma]

I guess Paul is guilty of elevating humans’ position right up there as having the same importance as Jesus . . .

1 Corinthians 3:9
“9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.”

Ephesians 3:6
“6 [T]hat is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” [Peter made the same mistake in 1 Pet 3:7]

He also thought he could save people . . .

1 Corinthians 9:22
“22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”

And forgive sins . . .

2 Corinthians 2:10
“10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ.” [cf Mk 2:7]

There you have it, Paul elevated humans and himself to the level of God . . .

Yes,if one wants to look at Paul in this way,of course anyone that is a Christian is not going to hold anyone as having the same authority as God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit and if someone does then they have left their first love.
To even compare Paul’s teachings with the topic at hand is either a show of arrogance or stupidity in the scriptures.Sometimes it’s hard to discern these kind of folks.
In case you forget the most basic teaching in the Sunday School room,that would be the “Ten Commandments” and the very first one is"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me,I am a jealous God!"
Hmmm,what do you suppose God meant?Could he have meant unless you want to elevate someone right up there with me,as having the same respect that God has
Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the laws

 

[zach_dunn]

Yes,if one wants to look at Paul in this way,of course anyone that is a Christian is not going to hold anyone as having the same authority as God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit and if someone does then they have left their first love.

Here we need to make a distinction, is “putting someone in the same regard as Jesus” the same as someone having their authority?

To even compare Paul’s teachings with the topic at hand is either a show of arrogance or stupidity in the scriptures.Sometimes it’s hard to discern these kind of folks.

How is what I did arrogance or stupidity of the Scriptures? You think that the Church elevates (or will, soon) Mary to having the same importance as Jesus. To show you that you were wrong, that there are humans that are very important, I gave you Scripture showing you what Paul believed he could do. I would call that “enlightenment.”

In case you forget the most basic teaching in the Sunday School room,that would be the “Ten Commandments” and the very first one is"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me,I am a jealous God!"

I don’t see the point you’re trying to make here, Catholics adhere to and have taught the Ten Commandments for 2,000 years, we know what they are. In no way, shape, or form has the Church made a god out of anybody; there is only one God, and He is a Trinity of Divine Persons. That is who we worship.

Hmmm,what do you suppose God meant?Could he have meant unless you want to elevate someone right up there with me,as having the same respect that God has
Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the laws

We’ve shown you many times that we have not elevated Mary to the same level as God, not anywhere close to it either. If you believe we have elevated Mary’s position that high, you will also have to believe that Paul has elevated himself and humans that high, see adriancombe’s post number 437.

 

[Louemma]

At least you are reasonable, thank you for that.

Being reasonable is a courtesy and there are some on this thread that could show one another a little more respect.No one is going to get anywhere on the discussion in this thread.Just too argue,that is what this thread is about.You really believe non catholic that your attitude is helping in making your point?And you Catholics are just as bad.
Better to be a peace maker

 

[Monte1945]

Just to be clear:
The four Marian doctrines:

1. Perpetual Virginity
2. Immaculate Conception
3. Assumption into Heaven Body and Soul
4. Spriritual Maternity

aren’t optional for Catholics.

The concept that these are not soteriological is also flawed. From the CCC:

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

Yes, of course… What I meant was that from my experience of entering into the
Catholic church I was not required to “accept Mary as having anything to do
with being under the Grace of God”… Not that she has no value in the church.
Or that one can’t go to her as in the form of a petition prayer, which I do. But
that it seems there are so many non catholics who seem to believe that one
has to acknowledge her in some formal way in order to become a christian.

I personally think one of the main differences of fundelmental christians and
Catholics is that they are more an legalistic individual in their Christian
walk and Catholics lean more towards community from a family point of view
Where as Jesus, Mary and Joseph is considered the first family.

I feel that we should enter into a relationship with the first family and extent
that same idea to anyone around us. “The world will know you are of me when
they see how your love one another” Thus we need community to show we
are receiving the Grace of God by the love of our community"

But it seemed to me, that so many non-catholics here seem to really have
a deep hang up with what they “think” we feel towards her and her role.
and I was trying to just rid their minds of this false idea of what the
Church teaches in regards to her which seems to have really struck
some fear and excitment in some non catholics
I was thinking… maybe if we can just clear them of that idea we are taught she is divine and or that we pray to her from that perspective we might could ease their excitment down some and then we might be able to present her to them from what we really feel about her
and try to help them to find her in their christian walk of life…

I think I personally see her as even more then the four you mentioned as
what the church teaches… but that is my personal view and abstract as
it might be it has helped me many times with certain situations I have
endured in my life with Christ…

I really like what you write have written and I appreciate your interest and helpful comments.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

That would mean that a child who died before the age of reason would not have sinned . . . curious, I guess that just another example that Paul did not mean absolutely everybody when he said “all have sinned.”

How can a mentally retarded person do something intentionally.

When I said you would not answer Randy’s question, I was referring to the question that I quoted in my post. This is the first post you answered his question, which is exactly what I was trying to get you to do.

False, Original Sin is not something you do. Paul says “all have sinned.” This implies that we’ve done something, this is talking about actual sins, not Original Sin. A verse that he talks about Original Sin is Rom 5:12. This verse starts out talking about Original Sin, then goes on to talk about actual sins, because Paull says “all men have sinned” at the end.

I agree that all of these actions are sin, and neither Jesus nor Mary did any of them.

You had not answered my posts until now, that’s what we have to do. We have to tell you guys that you didn’t address this or that post, then show them to you so you cannot hide from them any longer.

They were big indeed.

Adam and eve sinned and their sin was passed to us which was origninal sin so through them we have all sinned, but Christ. Nowere dies it say that Mary was sinnless, and that she never commited a sin. I guess that is what us former C and Prostestants think…She is not a perfect person or you are putting on the same level as Christ, and that is Blasphemy…He was the sinnless sacrifice…Mary was not…Mary WAS NOT PERFECT and she did sin or God would have made sure that it was clear in His word, not in the extras that the CC somes up with, and this was not done. It was made VERy clear about Christ Jesus though. As much you want her to be perfect she was not…ONLY CHRIST. thats why was the blood sacrifice that set us all free uncluding Mary. You can talk until you are blue in the face and you can only say she was perfect by your writings…NOT Gods. I go by Gods…And as I said before…if she where perfect and never sinned SHE could have been the blood sacrifice…You ARE makiing her equal to God and you are WRONG.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes, of course… What I meant was that from my experience of entering into the
Catholic church I was not required to “accept Mary as having anything to do
with being under the Grace of God”… Not that she has no value in the church.
Or that one can’t go to her as in the form of a petition prayer, which I do. But
that it seems there are so many non catholics who seem to believe that one
has to acknowledge her in some formal way in order to become a christian.

I personally think one of the main differences of fundelmental christians and
Catholics is that they are more an legalistic individual in their Christian
walk and Catholics lean more towards community from a family point of view
Where as Jesus, Mary and Joseph is considered the first family.

I feel that we should enter into a relationship with the first family and extent
that same idea to anyone around us. “The world will know you are of me when
they see how your love one another” Thus we need community to show we
are receiving the Grace of God by the love of our community"

But it seemed to me, that so many non-catholics here seem to really have
a deep hang up with what they “think” we feel towards her and her role.
and I was trying to just rid their minds of this false idea of what the
Church teaches in regards to her which seems to have really struck
some fear and excitment in some non catholics
I was thinking… maybe if we can just clear them of that idea we are taught she is divine and or that we pray to her from that perspective we might could ease their excitment down some and then we might be able to present her to them from what we really feel about her
and try to help them to find her in their christian walk of life…

I think I personally see her as even more then the four you mentioned as
what the church teaches… but that is my personal view and abstract as
it might be it has helped me many times with certain situations I have
endured in my life with Christ…

I really like what you write have written and I appreciate your interest and helpful comments.

Monte…It is not what I think are CC views on Mary, its what they are…She was sinnless, as only Christ was…She was born without sin…as only Christ was…She never conumated her marriage with Joseph…Which she did…These are not things that I think the CC belives, it what they belive, and none of it is scriptual…That is my only point…it is in a doctrine that the CC came up with over and above scripture…We are not legalistic. The CC has more laws to follow, thean any Prodestant Church I know. Of course I do not know all of the 2000 that apparently they do because that is a number that comes up. As far as a church family, we believe very much in the church family…we are the family of God…He is comeing back for His bride and that is all that have accepted Him as Lord and Saviour…ALLis the oppritive word. We take care of our widows, and all of those we know about that are in need. The family unit is extreemly importat to us, as it has been so brutally attacked. I hope this did not sound abrupt in any way because it was certainly not meant to…I enjoy talking with you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Adam and eve sinned and their sin was passed to us which was origninal sin so through them we have all sinned, but Christ. Nowere dies it say that Mary was sinnless, and that she never commited a sin. I guess that is what us former C and Prostestants think…She is not a perfect person or you are putting on the same level as Christ, and that is Blasphemy…He was the sinnless sacrifice…Mary was not…Mary WAS NOT PERFECT and she did sin or God would have made sure that it was clear in His word, not in the extras that the CC somes up with, and this was not done. It was made VERy clear about Christ Jesus though. As much you want her to be perfect she was not…ONLY CHRIST. thats why was the blood sacrifice that set us all free uncluding Mary. You can talk until you are blue in the face and you can only say she was perfect by your writings…NOT Gods. I go by Gods…And as I said before…if she where perfect and never sinned SHE could have been the blood sacrifice…You ARE makiing her equal to God and you are WRONG.

Adam and Eve were created without sin.

Did that make them equal to God?

God wants ALL of us to be without sin.

Does that mean that He want ALL of us to be equal to Him?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

No one is claiming He lost His backbone with His mother. On the contrary, He was the most perfect Jew that ever lived, and kept the commandments perfectly. He honored His mother in every way possible, in this case, allowing her to choose the time of the onset of His public ministry.

Indeed not, Louemma. Mary is a creature, and worship of her would be an act of idolatry, a very grave sin. We honor her as our Mother, as we have been adopted into Christ. As the first Christian, she lives a life that is exemplary to all of us. She instructs us in our faith, telling us across the centuries “Do whatever He tells you”. Mary always points to Christ.

This is in red to show that it is seperate here…Your right we have been adopted into the family of God…Christ is supose to be the instructor and our example…nowhere does it say Mary is, or that we are to follow her. Do you think that anyone needs to think that Mary is telling us to “Do whatever He says” that is not in scripture. Jesus says to “follow Him”, the Bible is full of His instructions to follow His example, live a life that is pleasing to Him. Somehow I think that He is capable of leading us… I just do not know how you can say that you follow Marys instructions in faith…of which there are none… and then say you do put her on a pedestal next to CHrist…She has been given no authority by God. COLOR] I guess it’s not red…

Yes, it is clear. It is a great loss for those who do not avail themselves of a relationship with the Lord’s mother, but one can be saved even with a truncated gospel.

No one here has said that Mary is “placed in the same regards as the Lord”. This is a misunderstanding of the Apostolic faith. I ask people who have an admirable prayer life to pray for me. It does not place them on par with the Divinity.

Praying for a brother or sister in the Lord is what we are to do…Of course this does not put us on par with Divinity…unless the person proclaims they are sinnless…

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Adam and eve sinned and their sin was passed to us which was origninal sin so through them we have all sinned, but Christ. Nowere does it say that Mary was sinnless, and that she never commited a sin. I guess that is what us former C and Prostestants think…She is not a perfect person or you are putting her on the same level as Christ, and that is Blasphemy…He was the sinnless sacrifice…Mary was not…Mary WAS NOT PERFECT and she did sin or God would have made sure that it was clear in His word, not in the extras that the CC comes up with, and this was not done. It was made VERy clear about Christ Jesus though. As much you want her to be perfect she was not…ONLY CHRIST. thats why there was the blood sacrifice of Jesus that set us all free uncluding Mary. You can talk until you are blue in the face and you can only say she was perfect by your writings…NOT Gods. I go by Gods…And as I said before…if she where perfect and never sinned SHE could have been the blood sacrifice…You ARE makiing her equal to God and you are WRONG.