Mary as Immaculate Conception

[Good_Fella]

This is a non-starter, G.

She’ll simply respond, “Where is theotokos in the Bible?”

But we’ll see.

If you do intend to ask, Leslie, here is the passage that confirms the 2,000 year tradition of the Church:

“And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David.”
Luke 1, 31-32

“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.”
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (c.A.D. 110)

“For if you understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unuterrable God.”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155)

“For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man.”
Hippolytus of Rome, Refutation Against All Heresies, 10:29 (A.D. 220)

"To the question: ‘Is Mary the bearer of man, or the bearer of God?’ we must answer: ‘Of both.’ "
Theodore of Mopsuestia, The Incarnation, 15 (ante A.D. 428)

And so, in the words of Mary’s cousin Elizabeth:

"And why has this happened to me, that* the mother of my Lord** should come to me?"*
Luke 1, 43

The fulness of God’s being is His infinite goodness and perfection. Thus in God a love for the good necessarily exists from all eternity, and this good is God Himself in His infinite perfection. God cannot love Himself but perfectly because He is the Supreme Good, or else he would not be God by being incapable of infinitely loving Himself. If God had intended to create a mother for His Incarnate Self, she would have to be perfect as her heavenly Father is perfect (Mt. 5:48) in order for God to necessarily love Himself perfectly. The fall of Eve is accidental, but the divine maternity for which Mary was predestined is intentional in the mind of God and therefore efficaciously willed by Him to please Himself. Let us not presume that God’s pleasure is tainted by capriciousness! If it were, there could be no God. The archangel Gabriel must have known all this when he said to the Mother of the Lord (Lk 1:30): *Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God * , after he had saluted her as the one full of grace.

This God - his way is perfect.
2 Samuel 22, 31

PAX :heaven:

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Jesus gave us Mary to be our spiritual mother when he mentioned her to the disciple: Behold your mother. Since apostolic time the Church has understood the profound significance of our Lord’s gesture.

Jesus and Mary were physically together when she carried him in her womb and lived under the same roof for thirty years. None of the apostles were granted this immeasurably great privilege. And it was because of this intimately physical and spiritual relationship between Mary and the Source of all grace that she couldn’t have sinned in her life.

Mary was with Jesus when he performed his first and most important miracle at the wedding feast at Cana by his mother’s solicitation. It was at this moment that Mary formally gave her Son to his bride the Church. She was present with the apostles at Pentecost when the Church was born and the mystical marriage between Christ and his bride was solemnized by the descent of the Holy Spirit.

None of the apostles save John were with Jesus when he did the most important thing in his life atop Golgotha. The beloved disciple alone had stood at the foot of the cross together with Mary while Peter, James, and the rest were in hiding fearing for their lives after they had fled from the Garden of Olives.

Jesus had no trouble remembering his mother when he referred to her as more blessed for hearing the word of God and keeping it than for having borne him in her womb.

I have the impression that you have very little respect for the Mother of our Lord. Perhaps you should follow the example set for us by her cousin Elizabeth when she exclaimed How is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Obviously she wasn’t as indifferent as you are towards Mary, who comes to us in and through her divine Son. We have cause to leap with joy as John the Baptist did in his mother’s womb at the sound of Mary’s greeting and as David did when he sighted the ark of the Covenant. Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace: a title none of the apostles would dare presume to claim for themselves.

As the ark of the New Covenant, Mary has a mission which is far greater than that of the apostles, for it belongs to the hypostatic order of redemption. She is more intimately associated with the Redeemer in the work of salvation than any of the apostles were in their earthly ministry. Her contribution to the Incarnation has made all things possible with regard to apostleship. Thus the Church has traditionally invoked Mary as Queen of Apostles. Her fiat serves as the principal norm for true discipleship.

1 January 2010, Feast of Mary Mother of God

Pax vobiscum :harp:

Interesting chubby…I really do play the harp.

 

[Louemma]

Interesting chubby…I really do play the harp.

Leslie why are you so angry at your brothers and sisters in Christ.If you disagree on an issue is one thing but to become angry, what you do with that anger can become a sin. We are to do the things of God in Love.The spirit about you is not very christian like and you will not win anyone over with your attitude I tell you this out of love.

 

[PRmerger]

Leslie why are you so angry at your brothers and sisters in Christ.If you disagree on an issue is one thing but to become angry, what you do with that anger can become a sin. We are to do the things of God in Love.The spirit about you is not very christian like and you will not win anyone over with your attitude I tell you this out of love.

Now, since I have Leslie’s posts on “ignore” I did not see the entire post–just what you cited about the harp–but, that did not seem rude to me. What’s wrong with saying that she actually does play the harp?

Or, if I read the entire post would I see what you’re referring to?

 

[JustaServant]

Leslie why are you so angry at your brothers and sisters in Christ.If you disagree on an issue is one thing but to become angry, what you do with that anger can become a sin. We are to do the things of God in Love.The spirit about you is not very christian like and you will not win anyone over with your attitude I tell you this out of love.

Her anger is an internal problem. Her new-found fanaticism just gives it an outlet. People with anger problems will flock to wherever their problem is enabled.
Hate is spawned out of fear. You hate and fear what you know or*** think ***you know. The scary thing is, many cannot see it, deny it’s there, or use a different word for it.
Hate, if left unchecked and not repented of, will do physical as well as mental and spiritual damage.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

No deitasation going on here, except for the babe in the womb.

Luke 1:41-43, “…And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb! And how have I deserved that the Mother of my Lord should come to me”.” I am going to misspell somthing on perpose to make a point hear…Blesst, art thou among woman and blessed is the fruit of thy womb …

=onenow “Leslie who is the Lord Elizabeth is speaking of in above the verses ? Elizabeth recognizes, the honor the Lord has given to her, Isn’t this obvious in the verse: she asks, how she is deserving of her presence.” I never said that she did not give birth tho Jesus,

Mary’s response to Elizabeth.

Luke1:
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

=onenow " Wow ! Mary’s been saved already ! 'And she needed to be

48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me BLESSED; That can be pronounced 2 ways…

=onenow "Can you explain this verse 48 to us and why only Catholics do this?"Blessed is a far cry from my Mother…my mothers name is Susan…She was Jesus mother, and then given to John…Not the world

49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. We canm all say that.

=onenow "What do you suppose these great things the Lord has done for Mary "?I don’t know, nothing is specificaly named…but He has done great things for us all…

50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. Absolutly. His mercy, not Mary’s

=onenow

51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, Right again

"All these words are inspired of the Holy Spirit, the words of God."Your right, See there are some things we can agree on…

Peace, and May God Bless the New Year.And Happy New Year to you.
onenow1

 

[Leslie_Polley]

If you do intend to ask, Leslie, here is the passage that confirms the 2,000 year tradition of the Church:

"And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David."The Son of the MOST HIGH…Who is the Most High…I think that would be God…It does not say Mary
Luke 1, 31-32

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Right again…He also became MAN…Mary’s son,MAN I underlined what you wrote.
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (c.A.D. 110)

*“For if you understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unuterrable God.”*He is absoluty the son og God, and the Word has seperated who the divine Father is and who the woman is that will have the Human part…Both necessary for our redemption.
*Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155)*And here you leave the Bible

“For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man.”
Hippolytus of Rome, Refutation Against All Heresies, 10:29 (A.D. 220)

*"To the question: ‘Is Mary the bearer of man, or the bearer of God?’ we must answer: ‘Of both.’ "*Right but SHE is only the mother of the Man.part Jesus…as it said above, by you …is the Son of the Most High…
Theodore of Mopsuestia, The Incarnation, 15 (ante A.D. 428)

And so, in the words of Mary’s cousin Elizabeth:Who also had Jesus cousin John…

"And why has this happened to me, that* the mother of my Lord*** should come to me?"She was sent there to save her life because she was pregnant and not by Joseph and she would have been stoned…so it was to protect Jesus
Luke 1, 43

The fulness of God’s being is His infinite goodness and perfection. Thus in God a love for the good necessarily exists from all eternity, and this good is God Himself in His infinite perfection. God cannot love Himself but perfectly because He is the Supreme Good, or else he would not be God by being incapable of infinitely loving Himself. If God had intended to create a mother for His Incarnate Self, she would have to be perfect as her heavenly Father is perfect (Mt. 5:48) in order for God to necessarily love Himself perfectly. The fall of Eve is accidental, but the divine maternity for which Mary was predestined is intentional in the mind of God and therefore efficaciously willed by Him to please Himself. Let us not presume that God’s pleasure is tainted by capriciousness! If it were, there could be no God. The archangel Gabriel must have known all this when he said to the Mother of the Lord (Lk 1:30): *Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God * , after he had saluted her as the one full of grace. Your point…Yes he was following Gods plan…

This God - his way is perfect.
2 Samuel 22, 31

PAX :heaven:

Yes He is perfect

 

[Randy_Carson]

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

 

[Leslie_Polley]

The Implications are, He was God made Man…He was the Son of God…Are you sayig that Jesus can not be bothe God from His Father and Man from Mary who is in no part God…Ar you saying God cannot do this… Are you limiting God…

 

[Louemma]

Am I wrong someone but this is the way I see it,
Jesus was God in the Flesh.
Sins required a blood sacrifice and Jesus was God’s lamb for the sacrifice of sins.
Why is this difficult to see?

 

[John7]

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

 

[John7]

This is where I get stuck often,
doesn’t Bible say “Before Abraham was I am” ?
Therefore could also say ‘before Mary Jesus (2nd person of Trinity) was’
Or was part of the Trinity created in birth process??

I don’t get it

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Leslie why are you so angry at your brothers and sisters in Christ.If you disagree on an issue is one thing but to become angry, what you do with that anger can become a sin. We are to do the things of God in Love.The spirit about you is not very christian like and you will not win anyone over with your attitude I tell you this out of love.

All I said was I play the harp, if that bothers you I am sorry…You have no idea if I am angry or not…anger seems to be an issue here. I only got really angry once and that was when talking about annullments, and they removed the tread when I could back up everything I said…Of course my answers where not included when it was closed…Louemma, I am NOT angree…and I did not think that you could try to win anyone over on this foum…The only things I do, or try to do is speek my beliefs, which are not agreed with, and consequently I am called angry…When I began I got frustrated, but even then not angry…Then I began answering the way I was talked to…now I just say what is on my mind with honesty and conviction…If I come across angry, I appologise to you, however you are wrong…I am direct, and perhaps that is where the rub is. If someone is sarcastic to me, that is my reply…I am usually grining when I am answering them, because I think its funny. I think the chubbys they send me are funny and now alot of times I send them back…I will say I get very tired of them telling me I am ignorant, and uneducated, etc. But now that does not even bother me as it did. I guess you have to grow some tough skin if you where once Catholic and come on a forum like this. Its a no win situation really, because I do not agree with 99% of the things said, and they think I am a heretic…I guess I sould be glad that I am living now instead of the times of the Crusades because if you did not agree with the CC they killed you…Now that is not being nice is it…Its to bad that you don’t reallu know me as a person…you may even like me…Who knows…God loves me though and if that is all I had, that would be enough. God Bless you now and always… forgive my spelling…I do not proof read so this is full of it i am sure and that seems to bother some people alot…

 

[PRmerger]

This is where I get stuck often,
doesn’t Bible say “Before Abraham was I am” ?
Therefore could also say ‘before Mary Jesus (2nd person of Trinity) was’
Or was part of the Trinity created in birth process??

I don’t get it

The Trinity is eternal–

It is correct to say God is Trinity. But, even if Jesus is God, it is *not *correct (indeed, a heresy!) to say that Jesus is Trinity.

Thus, it is a fallacious argument to substitute Jesus for God in *all *forms of argument.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Love I that. Yessssssssss

 

[JustaServant]

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Nerd.

 

[JustaServant]

Love I that. Yessssssssss

BTW, that was your 666th post.

 

[John7]

The Trinity is eternal–

It is correct to say God is Trinity. But, even if Jesus is God, it is *not *correct (indeed, a heresy!) to say that Jesus is Trinity.

Thus, it is a fallacious argument to substitute Jesus for God in *all *forms of argument.

hmmm,

No I don’t believe Jesus is the whole trinity, but I guess what I was asking was along lines of-

if
Son of God is the second person of the Trinity,
and Son of God is part of Godhead from eternity past,

then
how could Mary give birth to that was from eternity past?
how could Mary give birth to Jesus’s spiritual nature?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

BTW, that was your 666th post.

Better make it 667 then…

 

[grndslm]

Heya, I asked this in another thread that was actually off-topic. But it fits here. So here goes…
…

Continued…

Luke and Mark never met Jesus

Luke, being a Gentile and a physician from Antioch, would indeed never have met Jesus. He was brought to the Church by Paul. As I stated earlier, the few true facts in this person’s argument are straw-man arguments, as is this one. No one ever claimed that Luke had met Jesus, nor does the good doctor himself. This has absolutely no impact on anything.

Mark, was born in Jerusalem and tradition hold that he was probably a young follower of Jesus. Many scholars are convinced he is the little boy who ran away naked when Jesus was captured in Mark Chapter 14. However, the point is that even if Mark hadn’t know Jesus, it would have no implications whatsoever.

…the book of Matthew was written by a co-worker/friend of Paul.

This is simply untrue and has never been proposed by anyone in history. The ancient historians as well as modern ones unanimously affirm that Matthew was written by the tax-collector, Matthew, or at least dictated by him and transcribed by an associate, with Jews as the primary intended audience.

…

It is very likely that this person’s “study” consists of reading conspiracy theories on the internet and watching badly crafted youtube “documentaries.” Always remember that the majority of the historical revisionism regarding Christianity only goes back to the 1800s. Ours is a gullible generation

Hello everybody!!

I was searching for the reasoning behind the Apocrypha being removed, and it looks like I found it. It had more to do with economics than any actual decision by Martin Luther or King James to remove those 7 books. A little known bit of trivia that seems more than plausible.

Anyway… I am curious why people put so much faith in the Bible at all, and I was hoping that somebody here could clarify this for me…

If you admit that the author Mark (not the apostle Mark) was the only person [excluding Paul] who might have seen Jesus and wrote the experience down, and just for a second as a child… why put so much emphasis on studying all this?

The writings of Paul seem to be as legit as they get. Mark gets some stuff from Paul & mixes in some “oral tradition”. Matthew then copies Mark and makes a few changes. Luke looks at their work and then twists it up some more. Then we have John, who is the wackiest of them all. He more than likely came up with Revelations while having a fever dream while prisoner on that island. This is why it’s hard for me to take Protestants seriously, because they focus on works that were probly created 100 years after Jesus came and went.

Similarly, it’s hard for me to take Catholics seriously for admitting that Paul is THE source of the written and historical Jesus… and then ignoring the fact that he never mentioned a Virgin Birth (among other things).

Jesus is turned from a great TEACHER into “God’s ONLY begotten son” thru DECADES of grapevine stories.

And even if you break out the “he had to be telling the truth, a liar, or a crazy person”… I’m finally realizing what I had realized when I was in elementary school… those are not the only options. Perhaps he did tell the truth and people perverted the meanings of his words by adding in fancy stories and themes that were based on nothing found in reality.

I honestly don’t know much about Paul, but I’d like to. I don’t think anybody could help me understand the roots of Christianity better than Catholics, so I’m hear to see if anybody can help me with any of this.

Just want to end this with two of my favorite passages that helped me understand who I believe to be the REAL Jesus.
Mark 10:17-18:

17
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18
Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

John 10:24-38:

24
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25
Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify to me.
26
But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep.
27
My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.
29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.
30
The Father and I are one.”
31
The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
32
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”
33
The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”
34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?
35
If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside,
36
can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
37
If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me;
38
but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

You might have to think about that last one for a minute. :hypno:

So how do we really know there was a Virgin Birth? … especially if Paul didn’t mention it? Because some kid who saw Jesus for a second heard that from his buddy and decided it’d make for great writing material??

Whew… Lemme stop there for now. :coolinoff: