Mary as Mediatrix

[searn77]

I understand that Mary is the Mediatrix and Jesus is the Mediator. But when I read what Saint Bernardine of Siena said, I had a hard time believing this:

“Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.”

Is this a doctrine that all Roman Catholics must believe? Do Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics also believe in this?

From what I understood, Mary is Mediatrix because she gave birth to Jesus, who is the Mediator. I even understand that she can give out certain graces herself. But does every grace have to “pass” through Mary in order for us to receive it?

 

[jfhh]

Is this a doctrine that all Roman Catholics must believe?

No.

Do Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics also believe in this?

No idea.

From what I understood, Mary is Mediatrix because she gave birth to Jesus, who is the Mediator. I even understand that she can give out certain graces herself. But does every grace have to “pass” through Mary in order for us to receive it?

They don’t. Some believe they do and crown Mary “Dispensatrix”, but if the church has already recognized that grace can be given apart from baptism b/c God is bigger than baptism then the church isn’t going to do something opposite and say God is not bigger than Mary.

 

[searn77]

Thanks a lot for answering. I read an article with that info on ewtn.com and had a hard time believing it. Since that isn’t a belief held by all Roman Catholics, I’m wondering how true that article is.

Do all Roman Catholics agree with the term “Mediatrix”? Does Mary have the power to give out certain graces on her own because God gave her this power? If so, what graces can she distribute and what graces can’t she distribute?

By the way, the article that I am referencing is on:
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
Thanks

 

[JMJ_coder]

I understand that Mary is the Mediatrix and Jesus is the Mediator. But when I read what Saint Bernardine of Siena said, I had a hard time believing this:

“Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.”

Is this a doctrine that all Roman Catholics must believe? Do Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics also believe in this?

From what I understood, Mary is Mediatrix because she gave birth to Jesus, who is the Mediator. I even understand that she can give out certain graces herself. But does every grace have to “pass” through Mary in order for us to receive it?

While I am not sure that this is a doctrine binding upon all Catholics (it may be defined one day - “Mediatrix Of All Graces”), it certainly has been the mind of the Church for a very long time. The Church Fathers spoke of this, and the Eastern Churches - particularly in Saint Gregory Palamas.

Here is an article by Father Most on the subject:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[Genesis315]

I suggest reading St. Alphonsus Liguori’s book “Glories of Mary” as he shows this is the belief of the Fathers of East and West. It has also been taught explicitly by multiple Popes and an Ecumenical Council:
Vatican II:

1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

Christ of course is the sole Mediator of justice. His mediation is de condigno whereas Mary’s is de congruo.

Likewise, this does not mean we must pray to Mary for everything, but rather that no matter how we ask for it, it comes to us through Mary All saving grace comes to us from Christ, the Head of the Body, through the Church to the various members–Mary is often considered the neck since the graces flow through her first. Remember, all the members of the Church are connected; no one has a purely independent relationship with Christ.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I understand that Mary is the Mediatrix and Jesus is the Mediator. But when I read what Saint Bernardine of Siena said, I had a hard time believing this:

“Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.”

Is this a doctrine that all Roman Catholics must believe? Do Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics also believe in this?

From what I understood, Mary is Mediatrix because she gave birth to Jesus, who is the Mediator. I even understand that she can give out certain graces herself. But does every grace have to “pass” through Mary in order for us to receive it?

We have spoken of this topic in a recent OP here at CAF. I hope this is a sincere inquiry because I am seeing a pattern of brand new non-Catholic members of CAF asking this question in various different ways in different OPs. Some seem to be using this question in this forum as a springboard to try to go evangelize Catholics away from their faith based on assertions that its not biblical.

Protestants in general seem to have a problem with Mary being involved with any part of their salvation except as mother of Jesus. But what they fail to see is that Mary still has a PROFOUND role to play that is tied back to Genesis and Revelations. The other tension is caused by the general lack of Protestant recognition of the VITAL role of The Church in salvation and the interconnectedness of its saints in heaven with those of us still here on earth. And finally, the word mediation is too often confused by Protestants as being a unique role only to Christ. But this is an error since if that were true that God would not have used the prophets, the apostles and the saints to convey His word and be used as INSTRUMENTS of Jesus’ mediation. The bottom line is ALL members of The Church share in many respects in all of Christ - His suffering, His Glory and His mediation etc. Thus we all to some degree are mediators for each other - but THROUGH Christ.

If it helps one can think of this as Subordinate Mediation - where Christ willingly lets us cooperate and share in His primary mediation. Also, with respect to Mary it is clear that she brought Christ into the world so had a special role in mediating grace to The Church through her great “let it be done according to thy Word” fiat. It is theologically rational then that Jesus would extend this same role in heaven and let her co-participate with Christ, the source of all Grace, as a channel of grace from Heaven to Earth. That is not to say that Mary is the source of grace - but rather a loving channel of grace in much the same way Catholics believe that all Grace flows through the Church.

The key stumbling block for Protestants is NOT Mary but rather in accepting and recognizing the absolute necessity of The Church as the Mystical Body of Christ that is ESSENTIAL for all humanity’s salvation. Christ came to establish The Church so that mankind MAY be saved. Protestants MUST come to realize that The Church is absolutely critical to their salvation. From there Marian dogma easily falls in place and is extremely easy to accept.

So to get to an understanding here you might want to back up and start asking questions about why The Church is essential to one’s salvation. Then, ask about Mary’s role.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I understand that Mary is the Mediatrix and Jesus is the Mediator. But when I read what Saint Bernardine of Siena said, I had a hard time believing this:

“Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.”

Is this a doctrine that all Roman Catholics must believe? Do Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics also believe in this?

From what I understood, Mary is Mediatrix because she gave birth to Jesus, who is the Mediator. I even understand that she can give out certain graces herself. But does every grace have to “pass” through Mary in order for us to receive it?

By the way Searn77 are you related to Prayerwarrior17 or Martin777 that are posting similar questions over on the follow thread?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=290068

It seems coincidental that all 3 of you are new non-Catholics and share 7 in your names…

James

 

[searn77]

We have spoken of this topic in a recent OP here at CAF. I hope this is a sincere inquiry because I am seeing a pattern of brand new non-Catholic members of CAF asking this question in various different ways in different OPs. Some seem to be using this question in this forum as a springboard to try to go evangelize Catholics away from their faith based on assertions that its not biblical.

I’m sorry, I didn’t see the other threads about this. And quite the opposite, I want to join either the Catholic or Orthodox faith (I have to say Orthodoxy is pretty much out of the picture for me but I don’t want to rush into a decision). This topic has honestly been one that I have had a hard time to comprehend and wasn’t sure if it is held by all Catholics. The reason I asked about the Byzantine Catholics view on this is because before a few weeks ago, I thought all Catholics were Roman Catholics and didn’t know that eastern Catholicism even existed. I’m reading a book right now about the history of Catholicism and I really am interested in it. Sorry again about posting another thread and I’ll look for the other threads about this topic.

 

[searn77]

By the way Searn77 are you related to Prayerwarrior17 or Martin777 that are posting similar questions over on the follow thread?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=290068

It seems coincidental that all 3 of you are new non-Catholics and share 7 in your names…

James

No, I’m not related but that is very coincidental. I promise you that I don’t have multiple usernames. I don’t know if the website can check but if you look, I only use one username on this computer and this is the main computer I use. If you look at my posting history, you can see that I never evangelized once. I don’t because I want to become, like I said in my post before, either Orthodox and Catholic and I don’t feel like I should evangelize about them since I’m still learning about them. I even pray for Mary’s intercession every night. But you have to understand that coming from a protestant background (particularly non-denominational), this is a hard topic to grasp. But the only way to grasp it is by learning about it and I was hoping someone on the board could explain it to me clearly.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’m sorry, I didn’t see the other threads about this. And quite the opposite, I want to join either the Catholic or Orthodox faith (I have to say Orthodoxy is pretty much out of the picture for me but I don’t want to rush into a decision). This topic has honestly been one that I have had a hard time to comprehend and wasn’t sure if it is held by all Catholics. The reason I asked about the Byzantine Catholics view on this is because before a few weeks ago, I thought all Catholics were Roman Catholics and didn’t know that eastern Catholicism even existed. I’m reading a book right now about the history of Catholicism and I really am interested in it. Sorry again about posting another thread and I’ll look for the other threads about this topic.

No, go ahead and continue your discussion in this thread since it is actually more pure than the other one that got off topic rather quickly anyway.

Also, please understand that we call our selves “Catholics”. We only call ourselves Roman Catholics under rare circumstances when among fellow Catholics who are in other rites to differentiate our rites. The only other times we call ourselves “Roman Catholics” is when we have to fill out census data and the forms that secular governments use don’t have a category called “Catholic” and they propagate the ignorance of using the term “Roman Catholic” that was a propaganda term used by Protestants. In fact, the moniker “Roman Catholic” was originally meant as a pejorative by the Protestant Reformers to make it look like we “Romanized” the faith and were not the original Catholic Church. This is of course absurd given that we maintain the exact same residence of the Vatican and original papal church of St. John Lateran originally given by Constantine circa 320 AD’ not to mention an unbroken apostolic succession.

As it just turns out within The Catholic Church the Roman rites are the most popular and widely used rites within the Catholic Church. But the other rites all share the exact same faith - but have some slightly different liturgies and local traditions that have been carried within their historical cultural periods.

Most Catholics in the west use the Roman (aka Latin) rites. There are three major groupings of Catholic Rites based on the initial historical transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later on the Byzantine derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today. But we are ALL “Catholic” and loyal to the Pope who is seated in Rome where he conducts mass according to the Roman or Latin Rite.

More here: ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

I hope you can gain entrance into The Catholic Church quickly since you will be amazed at how deep the theology and spirituality are. We have an amazing history and such rich traditions and saintly disciplines that one can study.

Welcome.

James

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Searn77,

I am a Coptic Orthodox who came into communion with Rome. From my study of the Latin Church’s teachings, I have never heard of the term “Mediatrix,” though I have heard of the term “Co-Mediatrix.” If the matter was ever dogmatized, and I seriously doubt that it will, I would only accept the term Co-Mediatrix, but NOT Mediatrix. Co-Mediatrix carries with it the inherent meaning that Mary’s status is completely dependent on Christ’s status as sole Mediator. The term “Mediatrix” would run into way more misconceptions.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[TMC]

The Vatican commissioned a theological study of the term Mediatrix sometime in the early 20th Century and decided against defining it as an official title of Mary. I have not seen that study, however, Pope John Paul II commissioned another study in 1997 by the Pontifical International Marian Academy. I did see the conclusions of that study - they are on-line somewhere. They looked at the titles Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate and found that each has been occasionally used through history but that none was well defined, and that some uses of the terms were not consistent with the deposit of faith. They recommended not declaring any of these as official titles of Mary, although they did not condemn their use.

As I recall, the biggest problem is that, even amongst those that promote the terms, there is no agreement on what they mean. As others have suggested, some interpretation of the terms present an unorthodox view of Mary’s role in salvation.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The Vatican commissioned a theological study of the term Mediatrix sometime in the early 20th Century and decided against defining it as an official title of Mary. I have not seen that study, however, Pope John Paul II commissioned another study in 1997 by the Pontifical International Marian Academy. I did see the conclusions of that study - they are on-line somewhere. They looked at the titles Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate and found that each has been occasionally used through history but that none was well defined, and that some uses of the terms were not consistent with the deposit of faith. They recommended not declaring any of these as official titles of Mary, although they did not condemn their use.

As I recall, the biggest problem is that, even amongst those that promote the terms, there is no agreement on what they mean. As others have suggested, some interpretation of the terms present an unorthodox view of Mary’s role in salvation.

Seems to me to be the same situation as right before the declaration of the Beatific Vision, when the Pope urged the scholars of the day to keep studying.