Mary as pure as Jesus?

[ConvertHopeful]

Is (was) Mary as spotless as Jesus?

As a Baptist converting to Catholicism, I am having some difficulty understanding some of the Marian doctrine.

I thought that Jesus was the only being to ever walk this earth without succumbing to sin. I think that I understand that Mary is believed, according to Tradition (which is fine to me as an explanation), to also be without sin for her whole life. Is this correct? If it is, then is she considered on par with Jesus for purity/sinlessness?

 

[Will_B]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong… The Marian doctrines state that Mary was born without original sin. I don’t think they say she never sinned.

Jesus was like us in every way, but without sin. Jesus never sinned.

Jesus is God incarnate, Man Divine… Mary was human, woman, born without original sin… Did she sin ?

This is my understanding… Could be wrong.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Mary was spotless and pure. Can you imagine the womb of a sinner holding God? But Mary wasn’t pure on her own, God filled her with grace from conception.

What is so hard to understand? Mary bore God in her womb, doesn’t God deserve to be born of an immaculate mother? This honor is not for Mary but for Jesus.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

The Blessed Virgin was born without original sin, meaning she could not be tempted to sin. The Virgin did not sin through her entire life. This article from Catholic Encycloped ia can explain the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady better than I can:

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

I hope this helps, God Bless

 

[HCF]

The Blessed Virgin was born without original sin, meaning she could not be tempted to sin. The Virgin did not sin through her entire life. This article from Catholic Encycloped ia can explain the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady better than I can:

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

I hope this helps, God Bless

Being conceived without original sin does not mean that Mary was without temptation during her life. Christ was tempted by the Devil in the desert, and He was free from original and actual sin just like the Blessed Virgin.

 

[freerf]

Is (was) Mary as spotless as Jesus?

As a Baptist converting to Catholicism, I am having some difficulty understanding some of the Marian doctrine.

I thought that Jesus was the only being to ever walk this earth without succumbing to sin. I think that I understand that Mary is believed, according to Tradition (which is fine to me as an explanation), to also be without sin for her whole life. Is this correct? If it is, then is she considered on par with Jesus for purity/sinlessness?

The Marian stuff can be very troubling. . .and difficult to understand, for a convert from Protestantism.

Angels also don’t sin. Are they “on par” with Jesus for purity/ sinlessness? Probably it’s more appropriate to say she was “similar” to Jesus.

I found my Marian questions were better resolved through research on the catholic answers section of this site rather than through posts. You will find a lot of different takes, many of which will be defensive.

 

[achmafooma]

Mary is as spotless and pure as Jesus, with regard to sin. Neither was born with the stain of original sin, and neither committed any actual sin in life.

I know that can be a hard one to swallow (speaking as a fellow convert from Protestant Christianity) because it appears, at face value, to put Mary on the same level as Jesus.

Here’s the key difference between the two, which critics of Catholic belief on this often leave out: Jesus was without sin on his own merit as God. Mary, however, was without sin because she was given special grace by God.

Mary received a gift from God, and Jesus is God.

In this respect, Mary is more like Adam and Eve than she is like Jesus. All three were created without original sin. Adam and Eve brought original sin into the world through disobedience. Mary, however, assented to God’s will and never sinned.

God bless you in your conversion! I know some of these things are hard to digest at first, but with faith and study the truth shines through!

 

[MarkThompson]

Can you imagine the womb of a sinner holding God?

Yes, easily. Much as I can imagine God being born in a stable, persecuted, and tortured. I can also imagine the mouth and stomach of a sinner holding God (it happens every time I receive Communion).

Here’s the key difference between the two, which critics of Catholic belief on this often leave out: Jesus was without sin on his own merit as God. Mary, however, was without sin because she was given special grace by God.

This is an important point.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, easily. Much as I can imagine God being born in a stable, persecuted, and tortured. I can also imagine the mouth and stomach of a sinner holding God (it happens every time I receive Communion).

But Mark, being conceived and your body developing of someone is different. All things that make Jesus human is taken from Mary. He isn’t formed from the ground as Adam is. He inherited the fallen state of humanity through Mary. So this humanity he inherits should be befitting of Him as God.

 

[MarkThompson]

But Mark, being conceived and your body developing of someone is different. All things that make Jesus human is taken from Mary. He isn’t formed from the ground as Adam is. He inherited the fallen state of humanity through Mary. So this humanity he inherits should be befitting of Him as God.

First, I don’t know that there’s any support for the statement that Jesus “inherited the fallen state of humanity.” Man’s fallenness is the result of original sin, and I’m not sure why we would think that Jesus, who did not inherit original sin, was in a “fallen state.”

Second, you asked if one can imagine Jesus’ being born to a sinner, and I’m telling you I find it eminently imaginable. I have no doubt that being born to the Virgin Mary is more “befitting of Him as God,” but so would being born in a palace, attended by angelic servants, exalted above all kings, and worshipped by all nations and peoples. In fact, that’s why some Jews found it impossible to accept that Jesus was the Messiah, because they had been promised a mighty ruler and could not believe that this carpenter was the man – he did not have the outward attributes that they assumed would be “befitting of Him as God.”

 

[pablope]

Is (was) Mary as spotless as Jesus?

As a Baptist converting to Catholicism, I am having some difficulty understanding some of the Marian doctrine.

I thought that Jesus was the only being to ever walk this earth without succumbing to sin. I think that I understand that Mary is believed, according to Tradition (which is fine to me as an explanation), to also be without sin for her whole life. Is this correct? If it is, then is she considered on par with Jesus for purity/sinlessness?

I will recommend a book, Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen that explains plainly the Marian Doctrines, if you still have questions. Hahn, if you do not know him, is a convert to the CC and has written extensively.

 

[ConstantineTG]

First, I don’t know that there’s any support for the statement that Jesus “inherited the fallen state of humanity.” Man’s fallenness is the result of original sin, and I’m not sure why we would think that Jesus, who did not inherit original sin, had a “fallen state.”

Because he died. What I meant from the fallen state is our bodies which can be corrupted. Jesus needed to die so He can renew His own body into a glorified state, one of which we all will receive if we are worthy at the end of time.

Second, you asked if one can imagine Jesus’ being born to a sinner, and I’m telling you I find it eminently imaginable. I have no doubt that being born to the Virgin Mary is more “befitting of Him as God,” but so would being born in a palace, attended by angelic servants, exalted above all kings, and worshipped by all nations and peoples. In fact, that’s why someJews found it impossible to accept that Jesus was the Messiah, because they had been promised a mighty ruler and could not believe that this carpenter was the man – he did not have the outward attributes that they assumed would be “befitting of Him as God.”

I agree with the simpleness of the Blessed Virgin befitting Him. He doesn’t need a palace or riches, but He does deserve one who is pure because that is what God is all about, purity, love, not material possessions. So He surely can do without a palace and servants, but not of a sinner.

 

[TimothyH]

Because he died. What I meant from the fallen state is our bodies which can be corrupted. Jesus needed to die so He can renew His own body into a glorified state, one of which we all will receive if we are worthy at the end of time.

To state that because Jesus died his body was in a fallen state doesn’t sound quite right.

Jesus was fully human in every respect except sin. Jesus did not inherit original sin from Mary nor did Mary from Anne and Joachim.

-Tim-

 

[ConstantineTG]

To state that because Jesus died his body was in a fallen state doesn’t sound quite right.

Jesus was fully human in every respect except sin. Jesus did not inherit original sin from Mary nor did Mary from Anne and Joachim.

-Tim-

No, I mean he inherited man’s fallen state. Its quite different that saying He himself is fallen. He inherited human nature in its present state, not in the glorified state of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

Not inheriting original sin didn’t exempt them from death. That is what I am talking about. I guess the Eastern in me is speaking out. This is the source of disagreement between East and West about Immaculate Conception and Original Sin. If Adam and Eve introduced sin and death into the world through their sin, how come Mary and Jesus died if they didn’t have original sin? And how come they cannot sin? That is what I’m talking about man’s fallen nature, we die.

 

[HickmanJosh]

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

clarifications through scripture of Marian beliefs approved by the Church plus quotes from the early Church Fathers

 

[Todd_Easton]

The Virgin Mary “was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 411)

Jesus Christ, with respect to his human nature, was a pure man, conceived without Original Sin and never committing a personal sin. In the same way, the Virgin Mary was a pure woman, conceived without Original Sin and never committing a personal sin. So, Yes; with respect to his human nature, Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary were/are on par with each other. Of course, with respect to his divine nature, Jesus Christ, as God, is infinitely superior to the Virgin Mary, a mere creature.

Because Jesus Christ, with respect to his human nature, was/is a pure man, he is sometimes called the second Adam. (See 1 Corinthians 20:21-22, 45, 47.) Similarly, because the Virgin Mary was/is a pure woman, she is sometimes called the second Eve. It is quite beautiful really; as mankind’s Fall was due to the sinful disobedience of the first Adam and first Eve, mankind’s salvation was achieved through the sinless obedience of the second Adam and the second Eve, Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary. (The Virgin Mary’s fiat made the Incarnation of the God-man, Jesus Christ, possible and his subsequent death on the Cross won our salvation.)

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 155) contrasts the obedience of the Virgin Mary to the disobedience of Eve. (Dialog with Trypho, Chap. 100.) St. Irenaeus of Lyon (A.D. 189) develops this theme a little more. He refers to the Virgin Mary as the patroness (advocata) of Eve. He says that the human race, which fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin (Eve), was rescued by a virgin (Mary). (Against Heresies, Book 5; Chap. 19.) In another place, he says, “And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” (Against Heresies, Book 3;Chap. 22.)

 

[thistle]

No, I mean he inherited man’s fallen state. Its quite different that saying He himself is fallen. He inherited human nature in its present state, not in the glorified state of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

Not inheriting original sin didn’t exempt them from death. That is what I am talking about. I guess the Eastern in me is speaking out. This is the source of disagreement between East and West about Immaculate Conception and Original Sin. If Adam and Eve introduced sin and death into the world through their sin, how come Mary and Jesus died if they didn’t have original sin? And how come they cannot sin? That is what I’m talking about man’s fallen nature, we die.

Jesus died because that was part of God’s plan.
We don’t know if Mary died. Catholics are free to believe she died or did not die before being assumed.

 

[sleepyhead64]

both had free will… in spite of being born without original sin, they both had free will to sin if they chose to…

the fact that jesus didnt is but proof of his god-ness

we catholics believe mary didnt either… not because she coulnt, but she had to fight the temptation to her faith, to her name being good, to the very roman/israel chore of being jewish and roman

jesus fought, too… but it wasnt hard to fight for him… or was it???

 

[ConvertHopeful]

Thank you all so much for sharing your knowledge and sources for further reading.

 

[Brendan]

Is (was) Mary as spotless as Jesus?

As a Baptist converting to Catholicism, I am having some difficulty understanding some of the Marian doctrine.

I thought that Jesus was the only being to ever walk this earth without succumbing to sin. I think that I understand that Mary is believed, according to Tradition (which is fine to me as an explanation), to also be without sin for her whole life. Is this correct? If it is, then is she considered on par with Jesus for purity/sinlessness?

It is more than being apart of Tradition, is is also Scriptural.

In Luke 1:28, Gabriel used a Greek work as a Title, that word is Kecharitomene, commonly translated as “Full of Grace”, which is really an incomplete way of conveying what Gabriel was saying. Some editions translate that as “highly favored one” which is even less complete.

If you look at the Greek itself, it uses the root charitoo (Grace). It is is the past participle, perfect tense, passive voice form of the word.

What that means, in this one word, is that Mary was fully and completely endowed with Grace in the past, that she did not endow herself, but it was done to her, and that this complete fullness of Grace contintues to the present.

Oh yea, Gabriel also used this, not as an adjective to describe Mary, but as her title. As far as Gabriel was concerned “Full of Grace” was WHO Mary was.

Here is a bit more.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm