Mary as pure as Jesus?

[ConstantineTG]

Jesus died because that was part of God’s plan.
We don’t know if Mary died. Catholics are free to believe she died or did not die before being assumed.

Jesus died because the world is in a fallen state. He didn’t need to die if the world didn’t fall.

 

[James224]

Is (was) Mary as spotless as Jesus?

As a Baptist converting to Catholicism, I am having some difficulty understanding some of the Marian doctrine.

I thought that Jesus was the only being to ever walk this earth without succumbing to sin. I think that I understand that Mary is believed, according to Tradition (which is fine to me as an explanation), to also be without sin for her whole life. Is this correct? If it is, then is she considered on par with Jesus for purity/sinlessness?

Mary was sinless and Christ was sinless but Christ was sinless by His own power and Mary was sinless through the power of her Son.

 

[thistle]

Jesus died because the world is in a fallen state. He didn’t need to die if the world didn’t fall.

If there was no fall Jesus would not have walked the earth because no redemption would be needed. Because of the fall we needed redemption and that was through the death of Christ on the cross. It was God’s plan he died on the cross. Jesus did not die just because he was also human.
Tell me if I have misunderstood you but you seem to be saying that because of the fall all humans (including Jesus) had to die. However, look at the OT where there were some taken up without suffering death.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If there was no fall Jesus would not have walked the earth because no redemption would be needed. Because of the fall we needed redemption and that was through the death of Christ on the cross. It was God’s plan he died on the cross. Jesus did not die just because he was also human.
Tell me if I have misunderstood you but you seem to be saying that because of the fall all humans (including Jesus) had to die. However, look at the OT where there were some taken up without suffering death.

I believe it was St. Bonaventure who first commented, and echoed by Pope John Paul II in Theology of the Body, that Christ would have become human even if Adam and Eve remained pure. It was fully God’s intention to share in the humanity of His creation and Christ would have walked the earth in the flesh.

In the OT only Elijah and Enoch did not die. It weren’t “some”. But still it was in their nature that they will die. Remember Original Sin tainted all of creation, there are no exemptions on earth. That is why the Final Resurrection will have to wait until the end of time when God renews heaven and earth. Death is a product of sin.

 

[thistle]

I believe it was St. Bonaventure who first commented, and echoed by Pope John Paul II in Theology of the Body, that Christ would have become human even if Adam and Eve remained pure. It was fully God’s intention to share in the humanity of His creation and Christ would have walked the earth in the flesh.

In the OT only Elijah and Enoch did not die. It weren’t “some”. But still it was in their nature that they will die. Remember Original Sin tainted all of creation, there are no exemptions on earth. That is why the Final Resurrection will have to wait until the end of time when God renews heaven and earth. Death is a product of sin.

That is opinion and speculation. It is not Church teaching.

I used “some” in error as I was thinking of Mary at the time and forgot I was commenting on the OT.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is opinion and speculation. It is not Church teaching.

St. Bonaventure is a doctor of the Church.

Also, one of the reasons then-Cardinal Ratzinger called Pope John Paul II as The Great is because, among many reasons, Theology of the Body. Mind you there are only a few “The Great” in our Church, even St. Aquinas isn’t referred to as “The Great”.

Its not mere opinion and speculation, mind you.

I used “some” in error as I was thinking of Mary at the time and forgot I was commenting on the OT.

Now this is opinion and speculation. There is nothing that says Mary did not die. Its one source of frustration by the Eastern Christians in the dogma of the Assumption because the Roman Catholic Church did not clearly say if Mary died or not. The Eastern tradition maintains she did die for hundreds of years before the Assumption dogma was defined.

 

[thistle]

St. Bonaventure is a doctor of the Church.

Also, one of the reasons then-Cardinal Ratzinger called Pope John Paul II as The Great is because, among many reasons, Theology of the Body. Mind you there are only a few “The Great” in our Church, even St. Aquinas isn’t referred to as “The Great”.

Its not mere opinion and speculation, mind you.

Now this is opinion and speculation. There is nothing that says Mary did not die. Its one source of frustration by the Eastern Christians in the dogma of the Assumption because the Roman Catholic Church did not clearly say if Mary died or not. The Eastern tradition maintains she did die for hundreds of years before the Assumption dogma was defined.

If its not a Church teaching then its only an opinion.

As for Mary I personally believe she died first but of course there is no teaching on this and Catholics can believe she died or did not die first before being assumed.

 

[kepha1]

No, I mean he inherited man’s fallen state. Its quite different that saying He himself is fallen. He inherited human nature in its present state, not in the glorified state of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

Not inheriting original sin didn’t exempt them from death. That is what I am talking about. I guess the Eastern in me is speaking out. This is the source of disagreement between East and West about Immaculate Conception and Original Sin. If Adam and Eve introduced sin and death into the world through their sin, how come Mary and Jesus died if they didn’t have original sin?

Gen. 3:15 is a good place to start.
Rev. 12:17 is interesting too.
Don’t you find it odd that these are the only 2 verses in the whole Bible where both contain “woman” and “serpent”?

And how come they cannot sin?

Because when one is full of grace to such a degree, they don’t want to sin.

That is what I’m talking about man’s fallen nature, we die.

You mean our bodies die, don’t you?

 

[realpatience]

It is more than being apart of Tradition, is is also Scriptural.

In Luke 1:28, Gabriel used a Greek work as a Title, that word is Kecharitomene, commonly translated as “Full of Grace”, which is really an incomplete way of conveying what Gabriel was saying. Some editions translate that as “highly favored one” which is even less complete.

If you look at the Greek itself, it uses the root charitoo (Grace). It is is the past participle, perfect tense, passive voice form of the word.

What that means, in this one word, is that Mary was fully and completely endowed with Grace in the past, that she did not endow herself, but it was done to her, and that this complete fullness of Grace contintues to the present.

Oh yea, Gabriel also used this, not as an adjective to describe Mary, but as her title. As far as Gabriel was concerned “Full of Grace” was WHO Mary was.

Here is a bit more.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm

With due respect, I don’t think the Marian doctrine is scriptural. Luke 1:28 does not say Mary is spotless of sin, nor does it suggest it. The Greek charitoo translated “full of grace” (“highly favored” in most bibles) is also found in Ephesians 1:6: “To the praise and the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” Here, the Greek charitoo is translated “made accepted” which, incidentally, applies to all Christians.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If its not a Church teaching then its only an opinion.

As for Mary I personally believe she died first but of course there is no teaching on this and Catholics can believe she died or did not die first before being assumed.

Pope John Paul II teaches it in Theology of the Body.

And there is a teaching that Mary did die, its in tradition and I believe the Eastern Fathers have taught it. I will do more research on this and get back to you on it. But the East does firmlly believe that Mary died. The Dormition of the Theotokos is one of the 12 Great Feasts of the Byzantine Rite.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Gen. 3:15 is a good place to start.
Rev. 12:17 is interesting too.
Don’t you find it odd that these are the only 2 verses in the whole Bible where both contain “woman” and “serpent”?

Because when one is full of grace to such a degree, they don’t want to sin.

You mean our bodies die, don’t you?

Thanks but the questions aren’t really question because I don’t know, but questions that lead to a point I’m trying to make.

 

[realpatience]

If its not a Church teaching then its only an opinion.

As for Mary I personally believe she died first but of course there is no teaching on this and Catholics can believe she died or did not die first before being assumed.

The Catholic Church know Mary was assumed yet it does not know whether she died or not?

 

[realpatience]

If its not a Church teaching then its only an opinion.

As for Mary I personally believe she died first but of course there is no teaching on this and Catholics can believe she died or did not die first before being assumed.

By the way, the assumption of Mary, has this any bearing on our salvation?

 

[ddarko]

Is (was) Mary as spotless as Jesus?

As a Baptist converting to Catholicism, I am having some difficulty understanding some of the Marian doctrine.

I thought that Jesus was the only being to ever walk this earth without succumbing to sin. I think that I understand that Mary is believed, according to Tradition (which is fine to me as an explanation), to also be without sin for her whole life. Is this correct? If it is, then is she considered on par with Jesus for purity/sinlessness?

Hi there,

Nice to hear you are converting to Catholicism Praise be to God!!

So with respect to your question, the Blessed Virgin mother was Immaculately conceived. In other words, she is free from sin from the moment of her existence.

This does not take away from greatness of Jesus at all. In fact, it shows the greatness of Jesus. One thing you will come to realize upon further reflection of Marian Doctrine and Dogma is that they glorify Christ in a very deep way. So this special grace was given by the son of God as a way of honoring his mother. Think about it, if you were capable of doing anything, would you not give your mother the most honor you can give her? So Mary was preserved by sin through the grace Christ gave her at the moment of her conception. He honored his mother by giving her the most special and complete gift of grace. If we who are humans honor our parents so much, how do you think the son of God would honor his mother?

So the key to answering your question lies in Luke 1:28.

Mary was so pure, so privileged, so favored, and full of grace that the angel greeted her as “Hail full of grace”. Nowhere else in scripture would you find an Angel which is a pure spirit being ever speak to a human that way. In fact, it would be below the dignity of an angel to speak to a mere human being that way. Christ had certainly performed his duty of honoring his mother.

So ask yourself, how can someone with ‘‘fullness of grace’’ be in sin or fall in to sin? To say that one can do so while being full of grace would undermine God’s grace. That is why we know and hold by faith that the Blessed Virgin Mary was without sin.

Hope that helps

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

With due respect, I don’t think the Marian doctrine is scriptural. Luke 1:28 does not say Mary is spotless of sin, nor does it suggest it. The Greek charitoo translated “full of grace” (“highly favored” in most bibles) is also found in Ephesians 1:6: “To the praise and the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” Here, the Greek charitoo is translated “made accepted” which, incidentally, applies to all Christians.

You are incorrect. The word used in Luke 1:28 is **kecharitomene **and is NOT found ANYWHERE else in the Bible. It is in fact the Perfect passive participle of the word charitoo.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

By the way, the assumption of Mary, has this any bearing on our salvation?

Of course it does. It speaks about how Christ honored his mother. It speaks of how Christ treats a person who always said ‘YES’ to God and accepted him in to her life so intimately unlike any other human can even come close to. It speaks of the result of remaining sinless.

And most of all, the Assumption reveals a truth about your spiritual Mother and Queen in heaven who prays to Christ on your behalf; A mother who prays daily for your salvation and intercedes for you just like she did at the wedding in Cana (Edited).

God Bless

 

[YourAverageJoe]

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

Enmity - God made the Devil and Mary (the future Woman) enemies. Mary would not be much of an enemy if she sinned.

 

[ConstantineTG]

By the way, the assumption of Mary, has this any bearing on our salvation?

Yes, read Revelations

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But in turn how could the womb of a sinner hold Mary? If a sinless womb can only hold a sinless child then Ann would’ve had to be sinless to hold sinless Mary then Ann’s mother would’ve had to be sinless to hold sinless Ann and back and back and back…this was Aquinas’ and Bernard’s thinking on that approach to Immaculate Marian dogma…

Mary was spotless and pure. Can you imagine the womb of a sinner holding God? But Mary wasn’t pure on her own, God filled her with grace from conception.

What is so hard to understand? Mary bore God in her womb, doesn’t God deserve to be born of an immaculate mother? This honor is not for Mary but for Jesus.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is it really fair to tell this poster he’s trying to undermine Jesus’ gifts? If he is a Protestant who doesn’t believe Jesus gave Mary these gifts in the first place, how can he be trying to undermine anything? You’re assassinating this poster’s character by saying this and making assumptions that he agrees with Catholic doctrines and dogmas and is trying to destroy them. If he doesn’t agree with the premise that Mary was immaculate or that God made her so, there’s nothing to undermine and assassinate here, right?

And saying “if you were a true follower of Christ” is just plain unfair and lousy way to start a sentence with a Protestant brother. I don’t like this.

Of course it does. It speaks about how Christ honored his mother. It speaks of how Christ treats a person who always said ‘YES’ to God and accepted him in to her life so intimately unlike any other human can even come close to. It speaks of the result of remaining sinless.

And most of all, the Assumption reveals a truth about your spiritual Mother and Queen in heaven who prays to Christ on your behalf; A mother who prays daily for your salvation and intercedes for you just like she did at the wedding in Cana although you walk these forums saying all bad things about her and try to undermine truths about her.

I am just curious, how do you think Christ is feeling right now about your attitude to undermine the very privileges and gifts he granted to his mother to honor her?

If you are a true follower of Christ, you should have no problem in honoring Mary your mother, for Christ honored her himself.

God Bless