Mary (as Queen Mother) always gets her requests?

[brb3]

Why am I getting Scripture alone vibe?

Tradition and Scripture together not one without the other.

Tradition shows one should have geniune Devotion to Mary…

So, then …are you putting our devotional traditions before Scripture ?

 

[Miriam1947]

I’ve heard fellow Catholics say this too. If circumstances permit, I try to charitably correct them. I’ve also heard Catholics say that you HAVE to make the deMontfort Consecration and that you can ONLY go through Mary. Then there’s the mistaken idea that the Brown Scapular is your guarantee to Heaven. I correct all these errors when able. One thing that shocked me when I joined the Church is how many Catholics don’t know their Faith especially in our modern age where most are literate and have access to a wealth of good solid information.

Then there’s the mistaken idea that the Brown Scapular is your guarantee to Heaven.

Exactly, that’s superstition.

The one that makes me probably the craziest is the Medjurgorje apparitions. The RCIA director at my parish came back to the Church and credits Medjugorje with her return.

One night at a RCIA meeting I mentioned that no Catholic has to believe in any apparition ever, that it is only for the one who sees it and she really had a hard time with that.

Sometimes I think that not being a cradle Catholic has helped me because I am not superstitious. And some of the devotions of cradle Catholics are very close to superstition.

How do we change that? Is is bad catechesis? Has no one paid attention?

 

[De_Montfort]

So, then …are you putting our devotional traditions before Scripture ?

I’m not sure I am getting what you are trying to get at? Why are you trying to seperate what the Church Herself declares that can’t be seperated, Tradition, and Scripture.

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82** As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44**

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

 

[brb3]

I’m not sure I am getting what you are trying to get at? Why are you trying to seperate what the Church Herself declares that can’t be seperated, Tradition, and Scripture.

Big T Traditions…from the Apostles, as given them by Christ are on same priority level as Scripture. But, Marian devotions …like taught by De Montfort were not from the beginning.

 

[DaveBj]

Exactly, that’s superstition.

The one that makes me probably the craziest is the Medjurgorje apparitions. The RCIA director at my parish came back to the Church and credits Medjugorje with her return.

One night at a RCIA meeting I mentioned that no Catholic has to believe in any apparition ever, that it is only for the one who sees it and she really had a hard time with that.

Sometimes I think that not being a cradle Catholic has helped me because I am not superstitious. And some of the devotions of cradle Catholics are very close to superstition.

How do we change that? Is is bad catechesis? Has no one paid attention?

I don’t know about that. I’m a convert, too (see above right), and the devotional practices of some of the other converts I know are right out there on the fringes.

 

[Church_Militant]

You’re dead wrong on this brb3.

Our Blessed Lord did not deny the Blessed Virgin at all in John 2, He merely stated that His time had not come yet and that the wedding problem didn’t concern them, yet, without any other comment or hesitation she told the servants “Do whatever he tells you.” (verse 5) and the Lord stepped right up and, in response to her intercession, performed the miracle and actually began His public ministry early. (see verse 11).

Over the course of all the church approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary one message is consistent, even as in John 2:5, she tells us all “Do whatever he tells you.”

 

[De_Montfort]

Big T Traditions…from the Apostles, as given them by Christ are on same priority level as Scripture. But, Marian devotions …like taught by De Montfort were not from the beginning.

I am talking the big “T” also! I am talking about what the Vicar of Christ, “Holy Popes”
have written and taught gudied by the Holy Spirit. Popes who have given idulgences for those who practice True Devotion. Pope John Paul II recently recommened it and said it is to become a classic. Through the Popes the Church has approved the Teachings of St. Louis de Montfort.

And yes I am devout to Sacred Scripture, I pray the Gospels through the Rosary

 

[Della]

The other doctrines you mentioned are alluded to in Scripture. Not so the Marian doctrines. For example, there is no evidence that anyone believed that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven for the first 300 years of the Church’s existence. While that does not disprove the doctrine of the Assumption, it at least makes it acceptable to question it. (I’ve been debating that point in another thread.)

You’re wrong about this. The Marian doctrines are alluded to in Scripture. You should read St. Alphonsus de Liguori’s “The Glories of Mary” in which he cites passage after passage, theologians and, as I recall, Church Fathers and Doctors.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’ve heard this said as an ABSOLUTE, based on scripture in OT.

But, not so !! Read 1 Kings 2:13-25…where Bathsheba (Queen Mother) comes to King Solomon, asking petition for Adonijah, …but the King REFUSED her, and had Adonijah killed !!!

So, what are to make of this …except that Christ always has the last word !! Mary can ask, but she won’t always get her wish with Jesus…as we already see in New Testament, where she comes to Jesus with request to have a word with him, and HE DECLINED her.

I have heard many a thing, and some even claim absolutes, based on faith alone.

So, it seems your “problem” or “baiting” is specific to the OT and trying to make a connection somehow.

Jesus is not Solomon, and pre-figuring or forshadowing will never get you to the point of trying to argue that Jesus is equal to Solomon, therefore Batsheba is equal to Mary the mother of your God.

Try again.

 

[brb3]

You’re dead wrong on this brb3.

Our Blessed Lord did not deny the Blessed Virgin at all in John 2, He merely stated that His time had not come yet and that the wedding problem didn’t concern them, yet, without any other comment or hesitation she told the servants “Do whatever he tells you.” (verse 5) and the Lord stepped right up and, in response to her intercession, performed the miracle and actually began His public ministry early. (see verse 11).

Over the course of all the church approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary one message is consistent, even as in John 2:5, she tells us all “Do whatever he tells you.”

CM…

The NT occasion I was referring to was the later one …when Mary & Kinships came to Jesus, wanting a word with him, while he was teaching, and he politely denied Mary’s request that he be interrupted while giving the Gospel to the sheep.
I do allow he accommodates Mary…regards to the earlier, Water to Wine miracle. But, here, he had YET TO START HIS MINISTRY !!! Once his ministry began, Mary and we are to understand, as John the Baptizer said, HE IS TO INCREASE, I MUST DECREASE.

DID not John’s words ALSO apply to Mary ? The second occasion I reference, when Christ is preaching, seems to indicate so …IMO.

Am I wrong ?

 

[brb3]

I am talking the big “T” also! I am talking about what the Vicar of Christ, “Holy Popes”
have written and taught gudied by the Holy Spirit. Popes who have given idulgences for those who practice True Devotion. Pope John Paul II recently recommened it and said it is to become a classic. Through the Popes the Church has approved the Teachings of St. Louis de Montfort.

And yes I am devout to Sacred Scripture, I pray the Gospels through the Rosary

Glad to hear u cherish SS …hopefully FIRST, as the ONE CANON, 100 % inspired words of the WORD.
WHAT DOES OUR PRIEST HOLD UP AT MASS …for us to ADORE ? What do we sing GLORIA in regards to ?

CHRIST The WORD, the LOGOS from the ALPHA BEGINNING, who is our Genesis Creator and SUFFERING SERVANT OF CALVARY. ALL PRAISE and GLORY ( our TRUE WORSHIP ) is thru the Son, to the Father, enabled by the HS ( our Counselor / Paraclete ) sent to live/dwell within us, …proceeding to us from the Father & Son …all three Persons of Trinity unified in ONE GODHEAD ------ and we uniified to Them (thus now 4 Persons in unity) …yet we appreciate its really much more yet …the entire Church unified with the Trinity, …including the Church Militant & Triumphant (which includes Mary & our Forebears IN CHRISTOS).

Now, when John, the spiritual Son of Mary, received his vision on Isle of Patmos, …he sees and reveals to us what is the nature of proper WORSHIP of the Lord, by the Church Saints in Heaven …and for us still QUICK here on Earth.

Please point out to me in Revelation, where Mary & her CoMediator/AdvocaTrix INTERCESSARY role is identified…and taught by John to us as our way ( conduit ), to give Worship to the Lord ?

I don’t see it. But, Christ, in John’s Gospel …does teach us how to Worship Him, and Stay Fully Graced …and role of Mary is never mentioned as the ‘means’ or proper way to access Christ via our Prayer.

So, honor Mary, call her Blessed, thank her often for being a mighty Saint among Saints…but, recognize we should access the Godhead, via the Paraclete, we received at our Confirmations…who helps us pray rightly in true worship of God

 

[brb3]

I have heard many a thing, and some even claim absolutes, based on faith alone.

So, it seems your “problem” or “baiting” is specific to the OT and trying to make a connection somehow.

Jesus is not Solomon, and pre-figuring or forshadowing will never get you to the point of trying to argue that Jesus is equal to Solomon, therefore Batsheba is equal to Mary the mother of your God.

Try again.

Straw BJ…

I’m certainly NOT arguing Solomon is Equal of JESUS. Solomon was a wise man, except he sinned greatly, with 700 wives/concubines …

CHRIST, his great x 20 grandson, …remained SINLESS and celibate, …far superior to Solomon,… having borne the sins for YOU / I, and exalted by the Father to be a PRIEST and KING FOREVER.

I’m arguing Mary is not the 4th person of Godhead…in some unique way, apart from all the rest of the saints & Saints, who are equally ‘fully graced’, via indwelling HS, …and unified with the Triune Godhead (both individually, and collectively), as the BODY OF CHRIST, his Church, his Bride. All made possible via the Redeemed staying faithful, and receiving the BODY / BLOOD of Christ via the justifying/sanctifying Sacraments, and weekly Eucharist, the Elixer of Immortality.

 

[JRKH]

I hear ya. However, as I pointed out in my post after yours–praying to Mary helps me to be better disposed. IOW, for me, the Our Father has more meaning, after I’ve been better disposed and prepared, by praying first to Mary–than when I pray the Our Father ‘cold’ (if you will). Just a matter of personal taste–wasn’t meaning it like that’s how it must be done, or properly.

Peace.

Amen to this. The great thing about our faith is that it allows for so much flexibility in these matters.
Like you, my post was intended simply to convey a personal preference - to express this flexibility as it were.

Go straight to God first. Then ask Mary and the saints to pray for you.

We can certainly do that, but it’s not mandated that we do it in that order. Having said that, I pray Morning Prayer and then I add any personal devotional prayers afterwards. It just seems the right way to me, but that’s just me. If praying a rosary or a few Hail Marys first helps one’s spirituality/disposition, there’s nothing wrong with that.

Well said Della.
Prayer is so personal…It would be foolish for any of us to try to “mandate” a particular order. Gary and I each feel more comfortable going to the Father first. You and Rose and DeMontfort and others here feel more comfortable talking to Our Lady first.
The most important thing is that we talk to them.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Actually the Wedding feast at Cana proves my point. Mary’s humble prayer is answered and to me actually shows the power of Her intercession. Christ replies in a way that seems as if He doesn’t want to be bothered with it, “Woman what is that to me and to thee, my hour has not yet come.” Paraphrasing. In the end He grants His Mothers request.

And yes Mary’s last recorded words in the gospel are “Do whatever He tells you” Mary leads to Christ,

Christ said He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, If He honored HIs Father, what makes someone think that He didn’t honor His Mother and still does eternally?

It’s not an imperfection in Jesus Christ that He still submits to His Mother, It is because He simply wills it. And like I said before, Her will is always one and united to His will.

De…
As often happens on threads like these, I’m afraid that things that make perfect sense when understood within the FULL context of St DeMontort’s writings may not make sense when looked at outside of that.
This idea of Jesus being submissive to his mother in heaven is one of them.

That said - It is good that you have expressed and that we therefore understand that all points to God’s Will and to no other.

The perfect unity of Will that exists in heaven preclude the need for “submission” since the Saints, and this includes our Blessed Mother, desire only what the Father desires.

The problem with the term “submit” is that it intimates that there are contrary wills, or aspects that require one will to be subordinate to the other. Since this does not exist in heaven…Subordination is moot.

Not grousing here you understand…just trying to clarify…

Peace
James

 

[ellzeena]

I think it’s an error to rely upon what one reads (outside of Scripture) for one’s “inner truth”. Many people cannot read the texts of philosophers, saints, doctors of the church, etc., for many reasons. The Holy Spirit was given to all of us and, it is my experience, that this is sufficient for those who truly seek God and want to follow Jesus. As for our Blessed Mother, there is one contributor to posts who has a signature line that says something like “pray the Hail Mary x number of times at x time of day for x days and you will get what you want” (paraphrasing). This is all wrong, in my humble opinion. There are no “magic formulas” and I think this sort of superstitious stuff is offensive. I have a lifelong devotion to my Mammon (which is what I call her); I’ve been to Lourdes and am going to Fatima in a couple of months. She stands between me and the attacks of Satan which, in my lifetime (especially in the past few years) have been absolutely horrific. I saw her when I was five years of age. I know she is my strongest defense against Satan and I ask for her protection and her help, for myself and especially for others. But I don’t use any “magic formula” and I don’t “expect” her to “perform” on my behalf. She is my Mother; Christ gave her to me (us all). As such, there are times when she will do the “unpopular” thing, no? Just like a human parent lol. There’s my two cents (not counting inflation).

 

[JRKH]

Exactly, that’s superstition.

The one that makes me probably the craziest is the Medjurgorje apparitions. The RCIA director at my parish came back to the Church and credits Medjugorje with her return.

One night at a RCIA meeting I mentioned that no Catholic has to believe in any apparition ever, that it is only for the one who sees it and she really had a hard time with that.

Sometimes I think that not being a cradle Catholic has helped me because I am not superstitious. And some of the devotions of cradle Catholics are very close to superstition.

How do we change that? Is is bad catechesis? Has no one paid attention?

Yes - We cradle Catholics do pick up a lot of things that are maybe not precisely correct. Proper Catechesis is certainly a part of it. But another part can be nothing more than Honoring one’s parent and believing what they tell you.
So - if Grandma told mom that the Brown Scapular has specific promises attached…then mom tells me…and I do not doubt this because, as a child I honor my mother… then I’ve done nothing wrong by believing it.
Of course it is good, as we get older, to verify these things and so be able to pass on correct information instead of “old wives tales”.

As to the advantage of converts over cradle Catholics…I liken it to the difference between people born in a country and those who immigrate and wish to become citizens.
Immigrants to take classes in order to pass citizenship tests are often much better informed on some subjects than are people born here.
In most cases it is not because the “cradle Americans” were not exposed to these things, but rather because it happened when they were simply not that interested.

Likewise for the convert. Where the cradle Catholic may or may not have had good religious teachers and may or may not have really been paying attention, the convert is truly interested, drawn and ready to absorb.

Peace
James

 

[Church_Militant]

CM…

The NT occasion I was referring to was the later one …when Mary & Kinships came to Jesus, wanting a word with him, while he was teaching, and he politely denied Mary’s request that he be interrupted while giving the Gospel to the sheep.
I do allow he accommodates Mary…regards to the earlier, Water to Wine miracle. But, here, he had YET TO START HIS MINISTRY !!! Once his ministry began, Mary and we are to understand, as John the Baptizer said, HE IS TO INCREASE, I MUST DECREASE.

DID not John’s words ALSO apply to Mary ? The second occasion I reference, when Christ is preaching, seems to indicate so …IMO.

Am I wrong ?

Our Blessed Lord’s public ministry began at Cana and (as I pointed out from John 2) it began earlier than He intended precisely because of the Blessed Virgin’s Gebirah ministry of intercession in what was actually a small matter. The small matter is not as important as the clearly stated fact that Mary induced Our Lord to perform this miracle before He had intended to begin His public ministry.

The later incident is not indicative of your conclusion as it was not an intercession by Mary, but just a visit, which we can be pretty certain happened anyway. It has always seemed to me that it was never about Mary and his step siblings as much as calling the crowds attention back to the importance of the message they were supposed to be hearing and not interrupting it with something that was irrelevant. I even suspect it was a tongue in cheek rebuke to the persons who announced His mother’s arrival, who might even been seeking to curry His attention and favor with it.

As for John the Baptists remark…that applies to all of us and Mary was already the kind of quiet soul that “pondered these things in her heart” and did not draw attention to herself, so again…that is not indicative of any denial of her intercessions.

I’m arguing Mary is not the 4th person of Godhead…in some unique way, apart from all the rest of the saints & Saints, …

And you will not find a faithful Catholic or authentic Church document that even remotely infers such a thing…so why bother to even bring it up?

 

[De_Montfort]

The problem with the term “submit” is that it intimates that there are contrary wills, or aspects that require one will to be subordinate to the other. Since this does not exist in heaven…Subordination is moot.

Not grousing here you understand…just trying to clarify…

Peace
James

Hi James,

Lets take a little closer look at the unity of the Trinity. There is submissiveness within God. Jesus states over and over that He came to do His Fathers Will not His own, that He gives witness to His Father. In the Garden He said, "Not my will, but Thine will be done. Then in John 16 vrs 13 Christ states,

“But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming”

So if God’s life within Himself speaks this way, why would He, who came to fulfill the law not honor His Mother eternally with His Father? Mary shares in the mission of the Spirit, to form Christ in us and lead all to him and full knowledge of Him. St Maximilian Kolbe taught that The action of Mary is the action of the Holy Spirit, and that this union is so deep and intense that He acts only by Her and through Her. He also taught that they have on sole life together. And no, that does not make Her His equal, She is a creature and the Holy Spirit is God, but the union is so deep one does not act without the other. She is the personification of the Holy Spirit.

brb3:

Please point out to me in Revelation, where Mary & her CoMediator/AdvocaTrix INTERCESSARY role is identified…and taught by John to us as our way ( conduit ), to give Worship to the Lord ?

Can you please point out in Scriptue where it says it is our only teaching tool?
Like I told you before Tradition, and Scripture together.

I wanted to share a quote from St. Louis de Montfort with you…

“56. But what will they be like, these servants, these slaves, these children of Mary?”

“59. Lastly, we know they will be true disciples of Jesus Christ, imitating his poverty, his humility, his contempt of the world and his love. They will point out the narrow way to God in pure truth according to the holy Gospel, and not according to the maxims of the world. Their hearts will not be troubled, nor will they show favour to anyone; they will not spare or heed or fear any man, however powerful he may be. **They will have the two-edged sword of the word of God in their mouths **and the blood-stained standard of the Cross on their shoulders. They will carry the crucifix in their right hand and the rosary in their left, and the holy names of Jesus and Mary on their heart. The simplicity and self-sacrifice of Jesus will be reflected in their whole behaviour.”

Actually the teachings of St. Louis de Montfort, True Devotion calls for the slave of Jesus in Mary to live the Gospel!

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,

Lets take a little closer look at the unity of the Trinity. There is submissiveness within God. Jesus states over and over that He came to do His Fathers Will not His own, that He gives witness to His Father. In the Garden He said, "Not my will, but Thine will be done. Then in John 16 vrs 13 Christ states,

So if God’s life within Himself speaks this way, why would He, who came to fulfill the law not honor His Mother eternally with His Father? Mary shares in the mission of the Spirit, to form Christ in us and lead all to him and full knowledge of Him. St Maximilian Kolbe taught that The action of Mary is the action of the Holy Spirit, and that this union is so deep and intense that He acts only by Her and through Her. He also taught that they have on sole life together. And no, that does not make Her His equal, She is a creature and the Holy Spirit is God, but the union is so deep one does not act without the other. She is the personification of the Holy Spirit.

You bring up a good point in how Jesus speaks of His will and that of the Father and how the voice of the Spirit it described.

I remain uncomfortable with the term “submission” but understand better why one might choose to use it.

Since, as you said in your previous post, it is ultimately God’s Will that rules and no one else, I guess that personally I don’t feel the same need that some others do to differentiate. Tends to complicate a very simple thing. As always - Just my very humble opinion.

Peace
James

 

[brb3]

Hi James,

Lets take a little closer look at the unity of the Trinity. There is submissiveness within God. Jesus states over and over that He came to do His Fathers Will not His own, that He gives witness to His Father. In the Garden He said, "Not my will, but Thine will be done. Then in John 16 vrs 13 Christ states,

So if God’s life within Himself speaks this way, why would He, who came to fulfill the law not honor His Mother eternally with His Father? Mary shares in the mission of the Spirit, to form Christ in us and lead all to him and full knowledge of Him. St Maximilian Kolbe taught that The action of Mary is the action of the Holy Spirit, and that this union is so deep and intense that He acts only by Her and through Her. He also taught that they have on sole life together. And no, that does not make Her His equal, She is a creature and the Holy Spirit is God, but the union is so deep one does not act without the other. She is the personification of the Holy Spirit.

Can you please point out in Scriptue where it says it is our only teaching tool?
Like I told you before Tradition, and Scripture together.

I wanted to share a quote from St. Louis de Montfort with you…

Actually the teachings of St. Louis de Montfort, True Devotion calls for the slave of Jesus in Mary to live the Gospel!

In Scripture ? No, I don’t see this role of Mary. In Big T Tradition? …nope

But, for Jesus Christ …Yes, all thru Scripture & Tradition…and in CCC 667. (Jesus Christ, having entered the sanctuary of heaven once for all, intercedes constantly for us as the ‘mediator’ who assures us of the permanent outpouring of the Holy Spirit).