P
PJM
Guest
HOW so?
She immediately said “DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU”; hardly seems like she had any doubts.
GBY
- Status
She immediately said “DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU”; hardly seems like she had any doubts.
GBY
J
James248
Guest
Venerable Fulton J. Sheen’s take on it. The emphasis is mine:
Then he was implying a motherhood other than that of the flesh, as now He implied a fatherhood other than that which was exercised by Joseph. Never again does Joseph appear in the Gospels.
In the temple, Our Lord alienated Himself from the claim of His foster father, just as later at Cana He would alienate Himself from the claims of His mother. His supreme business was to be a Savior; but for the moment that included obedience to His earthly guardians.
The Child was implying that there was something in history which ought to be known to His mother and His foster father, something that justified His being where He was, and forbade their anxiety about Him. It was because of that that He asked, “What reason had you to search for Me?” And added, “Could you not tell that I must needs be in the place which belongs to My Father?” He was saying that He must be in the temple of His own Father. This was the first of many “musts” that Our Blessed Lord uttered during His life to indicate that He was under a mandate, under obedience to be a ransom. The very fact that He associated the word “must” with His Heavenly Father meant that Sonship implied obedience. At the age of twelve, He was girding Himself for something that would be irksome to His human nature, but His whole nature was bent on the accomplishment of a Divine “must.”
If there is anything that dispels the false assumption that His consciousness of a union with the Father developed gradually, it is this text in which He, as a Boy of twelve, hinted at His mysterious origin and at the peculiar foster character of His father, as well as at His perfectly conscious unity with the Godhead; the Divine constraints which swayed His life were already profoundly realized by Him. He often used the word “must.”
Then he was implying a motherhood other than that of the flesh, as now He implied a fatherhood other than that which was exercised by Joseph. Never again does Joseph appear in the Gospels.
In the temple, Our Lord alienated Himself from the claim of His foster father, just as later at Cana He would alienate Himself from the claims of His mother. His supreme business was to be a Savior; but for the moment that included obedience to His earthly guardians.
The Child was implying that there was something in history which ought to be known to His mother and His foster father, something that justified His being where He was, and forbade their anxiety about Him. It was because of that that He asked, “What reason had you to search for Me?” And added, “Could you not tell that I must needs be in the place which belongs to My Father?” He was saying that He must be in the temple of His own Father. This was the first of many “musts” that Our Blessed Lord uttered during His life to indicate that He was under a mandate, under obedience to be a ransom. The very fact that He associated the word “must” with His Heavenly Father meant that Sonship implied obedience. At the age of twelve, He was girding Himself for something that would be irksome to His human nature, but His whole nature was bent on the accomplishment of a Divine “must.”
If there is anything that dispels the false assumption that His consciousness of a union with the Father developed gradually, it is this text in which He, as a Boy of twelve, hinted at His mysterious origin and at the peculiar foster character of His father, as well as at His perfectly conscious unity with the Godhead; the Divine constraints which swayed His life were already profoundly realized by Him. He often used the word “must.”
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Jesus didn’t have to remind his mother of anything, only draw her closer in association with him in his mission. For Mary was collaborating with God from the beginning, as she knew (Lk 1:38). Mary may not have known about Jesus’ actual passion and death and all the eschatological implications involved. But she knew that her Son was the Messiah and divine (Lk 1:35). At least this much was revealed to her which entailed much pondering in her heart. Mary was called to act in faith, not sight. As events unfolded, she had to maintain a passive posture which called for complete trust in God. Mary’s entire journey in her mission, from the Annunciation to Calvary, was a journey of faith, while she must have increased in knowledge as time went on. So at Cana, she believed that Jesus would perform some kind of miracle without knowing all the consequences, since she did know that Joseph wasn’t his actual father. And she didn’t voice her concern to the head servant. Meanwhile, she may have intuited, perhaps by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, that it was time for her Son to reveal himself to Israel. Anyway, the Jews believed, like the angel told Mary (Luke 1:31-33), that the Messiah would resume the Davidic monarchy which was interrupted by the Babylonian conquest in 560 BC. They expected him to rule all nations from his throne on Mount Zion, Jerusalem. Thus, when Jesus was arrested, and things didn’t turn out as expected, the Jews disowned Jesus. They were so upset and angry with him, whom they considered to be a fraud, that they thought it best he should be crucified for his blasphemy. Still, the scribes and the Pharisees should have known better. But most of them despised Jesus for how he viewed the Mosaic law as opposed to their own traditions. This hatred and pride in their own traditions blinded them to the truth of who he really was and what he stood for.
:heaven:
J
James248
Guest
He may have not needed to remind her but He still did.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Reminded her of what? That he had to go about his Father’s business? Mary already knew that, having been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn’t come into the world to be a carpenter (Luke 1:30-35). When Jesus disappeared for three days at the age of 12 to preach in the temple, he was with Joseph at the time. The women travelled separately. So when Mary asked Jesus why he had caused so much worry for her and Joseph, it wasn’t because she forgot that he was on earth to do his heavenly Father’s will. She simply meant that he shouldn’t have left without letting Joseph know, so that he wouldn’t worry his parents. Jesus’ reply, “Did you not know that I would be in my Father’s house?” wasn’t a reminder to Mary as to who his real father was and that he was sent by him for a purpose, but rather an assertion that God was his real father, and so he didn’t have to let Joseph know. His real home was where HIS father dwelled, not Joseph’s home. I’m sure that Jesus would have told his mother where he wished to go for three days if he had been travelling with her in the women’s caravan. For she was his real mother, and so he would have dishonoured her by disappearing. And it must have been Mary who decided to check out the temple precinct while searching for Jesus. At first, it failed to dawn on her that Jesus would make a public appearance at such a young age. This was simply a matter of judgment, nothing more. Like I said, Mary understood things gradually as time unfolded while she pondered everything in her heart as a woman of faith. A woman can’t forget what she doesn’t already know.
Anyway, how does someone who’s in no need of being reminded have to be reminded? This doesn’t make sense. Jesus rhetorically suggested whether his mother was willing to go through with it, since she had no idea what the actual consequences (the hour) would be with respect to his messianic mission. He acknowledged his mother’s faith which lacked a clear vision that depended on a direct revelation from God to acquire. Mary was called to assume a passive posture, just as Abraham and Moses were, so that her mission would be one of complete trust in faith. It is by faith we are saved. It was by Mary’s faith that mankind was saved. Jesus acted out of obedience to the Father’s will in his omniscience, not in faith. He only increased in experiential knowledge, not factual knowledge as his mother had to in her pilgrimage of faith.
:heaven:
G
Good_Fella
Guest
J
James248
Guest
My view is that He was called by His Father to the Temple, regardless of whether His mother knew of it or not. And your claim that she knew that is contradicted by this verse: “But they did not grasp His saying.”
As you can see, I am in good company among the saints and theologians of the Church with my view. Read the Augustine quote.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
If Mary didn’t think that Jesus was in the temple, she wouldn’t have looked for him there. What Mary and Joseph couldn’t understand was why he went there all of a sudden at such a young age, and they must have wondered what he meant by his father’s business. They didn’t expect him to make a public appearance as young boy. I doubt Jesus had to remind her that he was the Son of God (Luke 1:35). You’re still not making sense. Meanwhile, Mary fully understood that it was time for Jesus to reveal himself as soon as he instructed the servants what to do. That’s why she said, “Do whatever he tells you.” She couldn’t have expected anything less than a miracle considering what his peculiar instructions were. Up to that moment, she may not have been expecting Jesus to start his public ministry at the wedding feast, but she certainly knew that it would be any time soon at his age. Augustine isn’t saying that Mary must have forgotten who Jesus actually was and that he had his Father’s work to do. She just didn’t know the day and the hour when Jesus would make his public entrance, unless he already told her. Anyway, there are countless interpretations, but all of them are speculative. No theologian, including a saint, is infallible when speculating theologically. Augustine retracted on several things he taught owning that he was wrong. I suggest you read what I write instead of just quoting me.
:heaven:
J
James248
Guest
I did read it. I just don’t agree with yours.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
If you wish to believe that Mary had to be reminded who her Son was and he came into the world to do the work of his Father, by all means, subscribe to such nonsense. Even Augustine and Archbishop Sheen didn’t believe that. Augustine isn’t saying what you think he means. What gives you the idea that he thought Mary had to be reminded who her Son was and that he had a divine mission to accomplish? Nothing in the text suggests that - not even remotely. The text is more in line with how Jesus perceived his mother in association with him in his redemptive work. On this occasion, Mary was much more than his biological mother. She was the new Eve (“Woman”). Mary knew that Jesus had his Father’s business to attend to, but she had to discover what exactly that business was. She had to learn things, not be reminded of them. Jesus foretold his passion and death in Jerusalem when his last Passover and the end of his life were nearing,
You’ll notice above that Augustine writes “Woman, what have I to do with you?” This isn’t the correct translation. You’ll find it in Protestant Bibles. It’s this faulty translation from some MS that gives the idea that Jesus was rebuking his mother. “What to Me and to Thee’?” is the correct translation which we have in the Latin Vulgate. Further, Augustine is mistaken if he thinks that Mary demanded a miracle when she said “They have no wine.” She didn’t ask Jesus to produce the wine. Rather, she just expressed her concern about having none to Jesus. So in response, when Jesus asked, “What would you have me do, woman?” (mah-liy walak isah), he implied “Would you like me to replenish the wine?” Knowing that’s what she would like him to do now that he asked, Jesus told her, “My hour has not yet come.” Here, he alluded to his passion and death which his mother had no knowledge of. The hidden premise was that he would eventually provide something different from wine, meaning his own blood by revealing himself to the Jews and beginning his public ministry on this occasion. By performing this miracle, the shadow of the cross would come between them. Their relationship would no longer be the same as it was in their hidden years. Both Augustine and Sheen pointed out how this miracle would not only alter the relationship between the Mother and the Son, but also redefine Mary’s motherhood in the order of redemption. Anyway, Mary had no idea how consequential her solicitation was. But as soon as Jesus consented to take care of the matter and would give the servants their instructions, she knew that he would perform a miracle. This is why she said, “Do whatever he tells you.” And she knew that his hour to begin his public ministry had arrived once he’d reveal himself. How it would be completed remained a mystery.
:heaven:
J
James248
Guest
Really? Because this is his word right here:
Why, then, said the Son to the mother, Woman, what have I to do with you? Mine hour is not yet come? Our Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man. According as He was God, He had not a mother; according as He was man, He had. She was the mother, then, of His flesh, of His humanity, of the weakness which for our sakes He took upon Him. But the miracle which He was about to do, He was about to do according to His divine nature, not according to His weakness; according to that wherein He was God not according to that wherein He was born weak. But the weakness of God is stronger than men. His mother then demanded a miracle of Him; but He, about to perform divine works, so far did not recognize a human womb; saying in effect, That in me which works a miracle was not born of you, you gave not birth to my divine nature; but because my weakness was born of you, I will recognize you at the time when that same weakness shall hang upon the cross. This, indeed, is the meaning of Mine hour is not yet come.
Usually when one brings a problem to a boss they expect a solution.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
That John perceived Mary to be Eve’s anti-type, the spiritual “mother of all the living” by her association with the Son, the New Adam, is evident in how he constructs his Gospel from the beginning up to the narrative of the marriage feast at Cana. The Evangelist begins with a type of creation story that in its day-by-day format remarkably parallels the Story of Creation in Genesis 1. What follows in the Gospel is a seven-day model of the new creation of the world which culminates in the inauguration of Jesus’ public ministry in the shadow of the Cross and Mary’s participation with him in undoing the sin of Adam and Eve.
*Day 1
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
Genesis 1, 1
That was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life;
John 1, 1
And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.
Genesis 1, 5
And the light shineth in darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1, 5
Day 2
And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
Genesis 1, 2
The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1, 29
And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizes with the Holy Ghost.
John 1, 32-33
Day 3
And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done. And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit having seed each one according to its own kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1, 11-12
The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples. And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God. When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus.
John 1:35-3.
In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.
John 15, 8
Day 4
And God made the two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light*and the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1, 16-18
On the following day, he would go forth into Galilee, and he findeth Philip. And Jesus saith to him: Follow me… Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him: and he saith of him: Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile.
John 1:43-4
Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that follows me, walks not in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8, 12
Days 5 & 6
Jesus journeys to Cana in Galilee, while John continues to baptize people in the Jordan, many of whom shall soon follow Jesus and have the light of life.
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moves upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26-28
Day 7
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Genesis 2, 2-3
AND the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
John 2, 2-5*
John’s account of the new creation culminates in the wedding feast at Cana, on which day our Lord does not rest, but begins his work of salvation. This is the second creation story whose principal characters are Jesus, the New Adam, and Mary, the New Eve. The narrative is rife with literary and theological symbolism. The first of Jesus’ miracles, by no coincidence through his mother’s solicitation, is to turn water into wine, just as the first miracle of Moses was to turn water into blood. Jesus turns the water into the blood of the grape, as it is called in Genesis 49. Recall on Day 2 of the new creation: ‘John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.’ (Jn.1:29). John 2 opens with the Lamb of God, who is attending a wedding feast with his mother and disciples. This wedding feast points to the eschatological wedding banquet of the Lamb in the new order of creation which John envisions in the Apocalypse. What allegorically takes place at the wedding feast in Cana is celebrated in the New Jerusalem that has come down from heaven.
:heaven:
*Day 1
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
Genesis 1, 1
That was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life;
John 1, 1
And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.
Genesis 1, 5
And the light shineth in darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1, 5
Day 2
And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
Genesis 1, 2
The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1, 29
And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizes with the Holy Ghost.
John 1, 32-33
Day 3
And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done. And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit having seed each one according to its own kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1, 11-12
The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples. And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God. When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus.
John 1:35-3.
In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.
John 15, 8
Day 4
And God made the two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light*and the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1, 16-18
On the following day, he would go forth into Galilee, and he findeth Philip. And Jesus saith to him: Follow me… Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him: and he saith of him: Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile.
John 1:43-4
Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that follows me, walks not in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8, 12
Days 5 & 6
Jesus journeys to Cana in Galilee, while John continues to baptize people in the Jordan, many of whom shall soon follow Jesus and have the light of life.
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moves upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26-28
Day 7
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Genesis 2, 2-3
AND the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
John 2, 2-5*
John’s account of the new creation culminates in the wedding feast at Cana, on which day our Lord does not rest, but begins his work of salvation. This is the second creation story whose principal characters are Jesus, the New Adam, and Mary, the New Eve. The narrative is rife with literary and theological symbolism. The first of Jesus’ miracles, by no coincidence through his mother’s solicitation, is to turn water into wine, just as the first miracle of Moses was to turn water into blood. Jesus turns the water into the blood of the grape, as it is called in Genesis 49. Recall on Day 2 of the new creation: ‘John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.’ (Jn.1:29). John 2 opens with the Lamb of God, who is attending a wedding feast with his mother and disciples. This wedding feast points to the eschatological wedding banquet of the Lamb in the new order of creation which John envisions in the Apocalypse. What allegorically takes place at the wedding feast in Cana is celebrated in the New Jerusalem that has come down from heaven.
:heaven:
G
Good_Fella
Guest
What on earth are you talking about?
A
abucs
Guest
Interesting insights.
That seems quite fair.
I guess mothers don’t change very much. They have a certain persistence.
I would think that Mary knew roughly what Jesus would do. Jesus had to do something and he was not likely to go down the road to the local Cana liquor shop.
J
James248
Guest
You know what I’m talking about. I have bonded it for your understanding.What on earth are you talking about?
Why, then, said the Son to the mother, Woman, what have I to do with you? Mine hour is not yet come? Our Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man. According as He was God, He had not a mother; according as He was man, He had. She was the mother, then, of His flesh, of His humanity, of the weakness which for our sakes He took upon Him. But the miracle which He was about to do, He was about to do according to His divine nature, not according to His weakness; according to that wherein He was God not according to that wherein He was born weak. But the weakness of God is stronger than men. **His mother then demanded a miracle of Him; but He, about to perform divine works, so far did not recognize a human womb; saying in effect, That in me which works a miracle was not born of you, you gave not birth to my divine nature; but because my weakness was born of you, I will recognize you at the time when that same weakness shall hang upon the cross. This, indeed, is the meaning of Mine hour is not yet come. **
P
PJM
Guest
SORRY, but that does not seem to be the case,
Luke 2:
[23] As it is written in the law of the Lord: Every male opening the womb shall be called holy to the Lord: [24] And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons: [25] And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him.
[26] And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. [27] And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, [28] He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: [29] Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; [30] Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,
[31] Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples: [32] A light to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. [33] And his father and mother were wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him. [34] And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; [35] And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.
Even 30 years after THIS event; it seems impossible that Mary would not recall this prophesy.
Luke 2:19
But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart.
GBY
J
JM3
Guest
J
JM3
Guest
495 Called in the Gospels “the mother of Jesus”, Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as “the mother of my Lord”.144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father’s eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly “Mother of God” (Theotokos).145
- Status