How did the apostles travel and spread the Gospel? if they were such know-nothings and couldn’t hire a ship to sail to Alexandria, Corinth, Athens, Rome, Marsielles, and on and on and on. The church is not just the Church of Jerusalem still is it?
They walked to Egypt, as I recall. They didn’t commandeer the resources of the Empire for that project.
Christ is who Christ is because of God the Father who chose a lowly virgin to be his handmaiden and bear the Word made flesh into the world. My understanding of Christ is not contingent on who Mary was.
They walked.
By the time they were doing that, the Church had the resources of more than 10,000 families. It was not just one guy and his son wandering the earth; it was at least ten thousand men and their wives and children, having pooled all of their resources together for that project.
There is no letter from Paul to the Church of Glastonbury, but the church was planted there way before St. Augustine came at the behest of St. Gregory. The whole matter of Mary is based on Tradition and the equality of tradition to Scripture correct? Well, if so then why now are you looking only to Scripture for proof when there is ancient tradition that upholds St. Joseph of Arimathea being in Britian at the very least. We will leave the whole Mary thing alone. The apostles were at some level people of means and to assume they were poor and only walked is just not true. Please, do some research in your own Catholic encyclopedia, don’t take my word for it, because I know no matter what I say you won’t believe it. My question is and has been throughout this back and forth, why some tradition and not others? If by the time of the apostles spreading the word was contingent upon pooling of resources of so many people, what of your earlier statement that they wereThey walked.
By the time they were doing that, the Church had the resources of more than 10,000 families. It was not just one guy and his son wandering the earth; it was at least ten thousand men and their wives and children, having pooled all of their resources together for that project.
And even so, I still see no letter from St. Paul to the Church at Glastonbury.
Which still doesn’t mean that Jesus was living there with Mary and Joseph.
I suspect that you and I define Tradition differently. Tradition is that which has been handed down through the Church in an unbroken line from the Apostles themselves. Not speculation that occurs centuries later.
In what document of the Early Fathers do you see a reference to Joseph of Arimethea going to Britain? What songs were being sung about it in the second century, what poetry was being written about it, and what work of fiction was based on this idea? What paintings were painted in the Catacombs of him doing this?
Because some traditions are affirmed by the cultural expressions of the same time period and shortly after (songs, poetry, paintings, works of fiction, references to it in the writings of the Early Fathers, etc.) and others are not.
hosemonkey, you don’t get. You write off questions because they threaten you. Your faith is shallow. To say “he is a protestant,” means I write him off and will not have anything to do with him. That has been the stance of the Roman Church for too long. The Reformation could have been avoided had the curia and Pope took the time and listened instead of pulling themselves out of the conversation into their arrogance. They were too concerned about power not truth. THat is fact! If you are Welsh then you have access to the local history if you were to take the time and look. I have referenced works accessible on the web and even the Catholic Encyclopedia which gives a glimpse of this tradition, albeit not Capt’s theory that Mary and Jesus were in Britain, only Joseph of Arimathea. I don’t think you need to explain me to jmcrae, thank you very much. We actually were have an healthy debate. You act like the second mormon at the door when the questions get too deep they encourage the other to leave. If you are so correct in all that you purport to believe, although I question your understanding of all your church’s doctrine with some of the stuff you have written, then a debate with yes, even a protestant, shouldn’t ruffle you so much. Don’t you trust the Holy Spirit to be your advocate? I won’t respond to you any longer because of your puerishness. God’s Speed.
Thank you, that explains tradition to me from your perspective very well. There are, according to Capt, who wrote the book about the traditions, songs and poems that lift up from the early church period and even early church father’s St. Augustine of Cantebury to Pope Gregory the Great…The symbols on the ruins in Glastonbury point to two cruets Joseph is said to have brought with the blood and sweat of Christ…and from all of this then springs the Arthurian tales (oh,oh that will get somebody upset). I find it intriguing with these stories and how they part of the warp and weave of English mentality at least until medieval times. I must say, with all due respect, that your understanding of travel ability does not hold up, though. I think we assume too much when we think of Jesus and his disciples as being so monetarily destitute. They were not, Judas held the common purse,they were able to rent rooms for dinners, Peter owned his own house, John and James’ parents were quite well off with boats and hired men, etc. It is like a Christmas Pagent where we gloss over our perconcieved notions over what actually is proclaimed in the Gospels. That’s ok for a child’s play, but as adults we really need to delve into the context of the early church and understand as best we can from the perspective of those who lived it. Thanks again for your comments on tradition that helps a lot. God Bless.Which still doesn’t mean that Jesus was living there with Mary and Joseph.
I suspect that you and I define Tradition differently. Tradition is that which has been handed down through the Church in an unbroken line from the Apostles themselves. Not speculation that occurs centuries later.
In what document of the Early Fathers do you see a reference to Joseph of Arimethea going to Britain? What songs were being sung about it in the second century, what poetry was being written about it, and what work of fiction was based on this idea? What paintings were painted in the Catacombs of him doing this?
Because some traditions are affirmed by the cultural expressions of the same time period and shortly after (songs, poetry, paintings, works of fiction, references to it in the writings of the Early Fathers, etc.) and others are not.
If an idea doesn’t make an appearance from the First Century until suddenly on an anonymous web site in the 21st century, I think we can safely assume that the Apostles didn’t know of it, and that it is, therefore, outside of the Deposit of the Faith.
However, there were songs being sung, paintings being painted, and stories being written and told about Mary’s perpetual virginity and about her glorious Assumption into Heaven - therefore, these ideas are part of the Tradition.
So, is there any historical evidence to back up the aforementioned legends? There is, but much of it is disputed.In what document of the Early Fathers do you see a reference to Joseph of Arimethea going to Britain? What songs were being sung about it in the second century, what poetry was being written about it, and what work of fiction was based on this idea? What paintings were painted in the Catacombs of him doing this?
hosemonkey;5204235:
It does no good to generalize like the one you quoted did that we can believe in UFOs and Chrystals, name me ten Protestants that hold to such views and I will name you ten Catholics as well. We don’t believe in the Magisterium as divinely appointed. The Lutherans at Augsburg were will ing to submit to the Pope’s authority if it would admit that it was a man made institution for good order of the church. It amazes me that the support the Roman Church for their stance on the Magisterium comes mainly from the fourth century on when the church had become part not apart from the empire and then the shifting of power away from Rome to Constantinople. The Protestants do not and have never said they are “Authority” themselves, their authority is God revealed in Scripture, and yes, supported by tradition, tradition that doesn’t negate the clear testimony of Scripture. Who do we have that tell us Christ is our “head”?, Holy Scripture, period. I know in this forum that a lot of people beat up on “Sola Scriptura” and I am sure the mention thereof will get some flack, but you have not read the Reformers in their entirity to understand the depth of their understanding of “Sola Scriptura”. It is not an empty phrase but relies on the witness of the church, yes, tradition (Apostles’, Nicea, Anthanasian et al.) to butress the theological premise. Luther called for a council, he called for papal clarification of those things he disputed, but because of the abuse of power, not authority, the church, his church, turned their back on him, as they had been doing for far too long. The reformation brought succor to many who had been left behind by a church that at that time at least had become all too worldly. God Bless you too!
I think that the reaction against Sola Scriptura comes from the “fruit of its efforts”. Churches that go by rule of Sola Scriptura seem to drift further and further away from this tradition and witness of the Church that you speak of. Maybe Lutheran and Anglican/Episcopal still have many of the shadows of the Church they broke off from, but further break-offs result in a further loss of these Sacred Traditions.
We have Bishops, we have priests, we have altars and we have the blessed Sacraments. I wonder what you mean by “fruits” though. THere are millions of faithful Christians throughout the world who love Scripture and learn from it to love their neighbor. This is grace. Have there been abuses? Yes. Thank God for the gift of his Son Jesus Christ who was the perfect one and gave his life for us and abides with and in us and gives us a second chance when we make mistakes. Thank goodness as well in the Roman Church there were those who saw the abuses in the church and have changed it. And I will be one Lutheran who gives thanks for the witness of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. They in their humility and genuine love for all people have truly revealed to my generation that there is hope again for unity at some level. Who would have ever thought that our churches would have signed a joint declaration on justification. And then the United Methodist Church to follow suit.
By “fruits of their efforts”, I didn’t mean to deny the fruits of individuals’ efforts in following Christ. Lord knows (no pun intended) there are some wonderful Protestants who have set a very Christ-like example for the rest of us to follow.
Was the early church in love with Mary?
Well, you know what they say about Assumptions! We assume that the early church looked on relics as much as the later church, say second century on. There is not proof of that excepts traditonal assumptions, even the assumption that Mary is who the Elder John is referring to as the “queen of heaven” is again just assumption. Glastonbury has a tradition, obscure as it is from the earliest years of the church, that she is buried there. We can get all upset about it, but and early tradition no matter what quarter, is an early tradition. Does it matter to salvific faith? No. Interesting nonetheless. Blessings.
2 kings 13:20-21…We assume that the early church looked on relics as much as the later church, say second century on. There is not proof of that excepts traditonal assumptions, …