Mary buried in Ephesus?

[jmcrae]

Isn’t it St. Polycarp (a disciple of St. John the Evangelist) who wrote about Mary’s death/dormition? I don’t recall exactly, but I remember running across it in The Faith of the Early Fathers, and thinking, “Hey, they didn’t just make that up - wow!”

 

[DancinTea]

I also visited the site. It’s an amazing place. Muslims and Christians praying side by side. In peace. It sits up in the hillside looking over the ancient city of Ephesus (see below). When I went the guide gave us an excellent tour. As I recall he said that the foundation dated back to the first century. He also said that there are a few tombs a distance away from the house where all the people buried have their faces turned to the house. The tombs date to the first century. Portions of the building date to the 2nd century or so. It’s location was lost to the western Church. An explorer found it using the descriptions that St. Catherine of Emmerich put in her book relaying her visions regarding the life of Christ. When the explorer finally located it, he also found out that the local Catholic Orthodox made pilgrimages to the site on the 15th for centuries. Our Lady of Ephesus is one of the titles of our Lady.

Actually Ephesus itself is amazing. It was the largest port in the Eastern part of the Roman Empire. Around the 4th century or so, the river and port started silting in and the sea moved further out (3 miles out by the 20th century). This created marshy areas and malaria. The city was gradually abandoned and forgotten. It was rediscovered in the 1800’s when folks were putting in a railroad. As the city sits in a deep mountain valley many of the buildings were covered in a protective layer of silt. If you like the ancient world and visiting ruins, this is about as good as it gets.

Only about half of the city has been excavated. You walk down streets with buildings on both sides. You can see the spot where Cleopatra is reputed to have arranged a meeting with Anthony. There are many 2 story buildings. Until recently the amphitheatre (place merchants selling silver statues of Artemis raised such a ruckus when Paul was there) was used for concerts. The city had running water and even had an overhead water cooling systems that dispersed water mist that evaporated and lowered the temperature 10 degrees or so.

 

[Victorious]

"They teach that Mary was not to be outdone by Jesus and His resurrection, but that she, like Jesus, resurrected and ascended to heaven. "

“Not to be outdone”??? So of her own power, Mary resurrected herself and ascended to heaven? Somebody here is attributing divine powers to Mary, and it ain’t the Catholic Church!

 

[auhsoj88]

“Mary” was a very popular name in the 1st Century. I think the New Testament alone you can count 3 or 4 Mary’s. Finding a grave marked Mary proves nothing as there was many Marys. Just as the the New Testement there is two “Jesus”, one of them being our Lord.

Also because because people did not have last names, so rather they would Identify with, Mary of Magdelen, Mary mother Jesus, Mary mother of James and Joses, etc,

I dont believe anything has ever been found (grave) that reads to:

Mary, mother of Jesus, or Mary, wife of Joeseph,

In Christ

 

[happygal]

I’ve actually been to the site, which as far as I’m aware, is simply known as “The House of the Virgin Mary”. It was implied that this was where Mary spent her last days, but there was no mention of a tomb, and if there was one, it certainly wasn’t marked as such. It was simply the house seen in the 3D animation above. It is not a very big structure.

Me too being to her house and did not heard about her grave. But was such an interesting visitation, so sad cannot take picture, but managed to cam it down…hehe

 

[gelsbern]

I just tell people like that the following.

Every human, the living and the dead will be resurrected, we will all ascend to heaven to stand in front of the judgement seat and then our eternal fates will be decided. Mary, because of her act of submission to God, and for the suffering she went through seeing her son, Our Lord Christ suffer and die on the cross, simply got to to the front of the line.

 

[Zooey]

I just tell people like that the following.

Every human, the living and the dead will be resurrected, we will all ascend to heaven to stand in front of the judgement seat and then our eternal fates will be decided. Mary, because of her act of submission to God, and for the suffering she went through seeing her son, Our Lord Christ suffer and die on the cross, simply got to to the front of the line.

 

[Zooey]

You can ask him again. He goes by the name of bibleapologist on these forums. I’m not sure if it’s very Christian to call him an idiot. I tend to find that phrase as sort of a put down when its applied to me.

OK, I won’t call him that…I’ll will: say I’ve seen that site. Its :whacky: idiotic. In spades.

I believe that :tsktsk: The Man Has Issues.

 

[awalt]

I’ve always found the “no relics of Mary” argument a bit weak myself, mainly because there are also no first class relics of Saint Joseph either, nor is his grave known.

I recently read one of the books on the Dcotrs of the Church, and what really struck me was how crazy people got over relics of the saints. I remembered thinking, they would have gone crazy grabbing relics of Mary if they were around. With all that passion about the bodies of the saints (they split them up, popes got involved grabbing their heads etc. for Rome, people grabbed bones for their Churches, etc.), I just believe that there would have been some evidence of a grave/remains of Mary if there were any - and no one has ever mentioned it.

 

[thistle]

I just tell people like that the following.

Every human, the living and the dead will be resurrected, we will all ascend to heaven to stand in front of the judgement seat and then our eternal fates will be decided. Mary, because of her act of submission to God, and for the suffering she went through seeing her son, Our Lord Christ suffer and die on the cross, simply got to to the front of the line.

Off topic but that is not quite correct. Those already dead have already been judged and the Final Judgement confirms the Particular Judgement. It does not change it.

 

[mshealy]

There is actually some dispute over where she (or her body) was laid to rest before it was “assumed.” Most agree that based on Pius XII’s ex cathedra pronouncement that Mary actually died (some claim she didn’t actually die) and then her body was “assumed” into heaven. Nevertheless, there are two locations that lay claim to pride of place concerning Mary’s death. (1) There is Mary’s House in Ephesus with which you are familiar, then there is (2) Dormition Abbey in Jerusalem. I don’t think there is a way to clearly resolve where she was when she died. She could have lived in both places for sometime. In fact, that much is probably true. At any rate, the Church doesn’t teach with infallibility where she died, only that she was bodily assumed to heaven after her death.

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought the Church taught that she was Assumed into Heaven but is silent on whether she died or not.

 

[RyanL]

I thought the Church taught that she was Assumed into Heaven but is silent on whether she died or not.

This is correct. The Church phrases the event prior to the assumption as the time when Mary “completed the course of her earthly life.” Maybe she died, maybe she didn’t.

Source: MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[gelsbern]

Off topic but that is not quite correct. Those already dead have already been judged and the Final Judgement confirms the Particular Judgement. It does not change it.

Yes, but when dealing with “those types” it is best to use language they understand even if it’s “not quite correct”.

 

[thistle]

Yes, but when dealing with “those types” it is best to use language they understand even if it’s “not quite correct”.

 

[SemperJase]

Anyone that refers to the Catholic Church as the “Catholic Institution” is displaying a willful intellectual dishonesty. This is further demonstrated by the number of false claims including not recognizing the difference between assumption and resurrection.

I really don’t mind these sites though, as anyone who understands reason can see right through the claims. This type of site led me to seriously consider the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Don’t be worried about it. Anyone with $7.00 a year for a domain name and $15.00 a month for hosting can put up a site that says anything they want it to say. They only suck in people who already agree with their views.

 

[frnate]

Sounds more like:

REVEREND BILLY RAY COLLINS’ MORNING MESSAGE FOR 8/3/05

WELL GOOD MORNIN’ THERE JOHN BOY & BILLY – AND GOOD MORNIN’ TO ALL OUR BELOVED FRIENDS OUT THERE IN RADIO-LAND. THIS HERE’S THE REVEREND BILLY RAY COLLINS FROM THE SWORD OF JOSHUA INDEPENDENT FULL-GOSPEL PENTECOSTAL ASSEMBLY…JUST OFF STATE ROAD 23 ON THE FRONTAGE ROAD.

OUR 2005 VACATION BIBLE SCHOOL WAS A SATAN-SMASHIN’ SUCCESS. ALTHOUGH, I DID GET SOME PHONE CALLS SAYIN’ “PREACHER…YER BEIN’ WAY TOO NARROW IN WHAT YOU TEACHIN THESE YOUNG’UNS.” WELL… DON’T WORRY, SKEPTICS AND AGNOSTICATORS – YER GETTIN’ SOME EQUAL TIME OUT THERE IN THE MIDWEST. FELLER’S GOT A SUMMER CAMP SPECIALLY FOR…ATHEIST TEENAGERS. READ A STORY BOUT IT IN THE NEWSPAPER. LISTEN AT THIS:

“UNGODLY FUN: SUMMER CAMP FOR KIDS OFFERS MEALS WITHOUT GRACE, CAMPFIRES WITHOUT BLESSINGS, AND LIGHTS OUT WITHOUT PRAYERS.”

SEE, THERE’S THE PROBLEM WITH KIDS TODAY: THEY’S JUST GETTIN’ WAY TOO MUCH GOD. SO WELCOME TO “CAMP GO-TO-HELL.” THAT’S A ATHEIST FER YA – FIRST THEY KICKED GOD OUTTA THE SCHOOLS…NOW THEY’S TRYIN’ TO KICK HIM OUTTA THE WOODS, TOO.

“ADVERTISED AS A FREE THINKIN’ ENVIRONMENT, CAMP QUEST BOASTS THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ATTEND WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR FREE INQUIRY – EXCEPT, OR COURSE, THE IDEA OF GOD WILL NOT BE PART OF THE EQUATION.” SO MUCH FOR FREE-THINKIN’.

WE KNOW THE PARENTS HAS GOT PROBLEMS. WHY WOULD A KID WANNA GO TO ATHEIST CAMP? WELL… HERE’S WHAT ONE GIRL SAID: “I DIDN’T LIKE HAVING TO SAY A MILLION PRAYERS A DAY AT OTHER CAMPS.”

LET’S SEE HERE: GOD IS GREAT…GOD IS GOOD LET US THANK HIM FOR OUR FOOD AMEN.

THAT TOOK PURT’NEAR 5 SECONDS. YEAH BOY…THAT’S A REAL KILLER. DO THAT FOR ALL 3 MEALS…YER WHOLE DAY IS SHOT!

THE FOUNDER OF "CAMP GO-TO-HELL- IS…BRACE YERSELF…A LAWYER. HE SEZ “WE TEACH CRITICAL THINKING. WE TEACH SCIENCE. WE TEACH EVOLUTION. WE HAVE A STRONG EMPHASIS ON SCIENTIFIC METHOD.” IN OTHER WORDS…HE’LL HIT YER YOUNG’UN OVER THE HEAD WITH EVER’THING BUT THE TRUTH.

"AT THE OPENING CAMPFIRE CEREMONY, THE DIRECTOR ISSUED A SET OF CHALLENGES FOR CAMPERS TO RESPOND TO IN SKITS. ONE CHALLENGE: HELP RESIDENTS OF THE FARAWAY PLANET QUESTERION UNDERSTAND HOW LIFE ON EARTH CAME INTO BEING.
ANOTHER CHALLENGE: PROVE THAT THE TWO INVISIBLE UNICORNS IN RESIDENCE DO NOT EXIST.

THERE YA GO: QUESTERIONS AND INVISIBLE UNICORNS. NOW DON’T THAT SOUND REAL ENLIGHTENED AND SCIENTIFIC?

BUT THAT AIN’T ALL – THE CHILDREN ALSO GET A WEEK OF SEMINARS THAT SALUTE FAMOUS ATHEISTS AND HUMANISTS LIKE MARGARET SANGER: THE FOUNDER OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD. ALBERT EENSTEEN: THE FELLER THAT WROTE THEORY OF RELATIVI-TISM.
AND TED TURNER…THE FELLER THAT STARTED CNN, THE COMM’ANIST NEWS NETWORK. WELL NOW – MAKES THAT "MTV BEACH HOUSE- SOUND LIKE A BOOGER, DON’T IT?

THERE YA GO, JUNIOR HEATHERNS – Y’ALL HAVE FUN SITTIN’ AROUND TALKIN’ BOUT THE GOOD OL’ DAYS WHEN OUR TAILS FIRST FELL OFF. HAVE YOU A GOOD OL’ FASHIONED SINGALONG LIKE “IF YER HAPPY AND YOU KNOW IT BECAUSE OF A CHANCE COMBINATION OF INORGANIC CHEMICALS 4 BILLION YEARS AGO, CLAP YER HANDS!” BUT ONE DAY WHEN IT’S YOU INSTEAD OF A MARSHMELLER ON THE END OF THAT STICK…AND YER BEIIN’ ROASTED ON THE DEVIL’S BONFIRE…DON’T SAY I DIDN’T TRY TO WARN Y’UNS!

BY THE WAY…I HOPE IT AIN’T RUDE FOR ME TO POINT OUT THAT THE ATHEISTS THERE AT “CAMP GO-TO-HELL” WILL BE GLAD TO TAKE YER MONEY…EVEN IF IT DOES HAVE “IN GOD WE TRUST” WROTE ON IT. BUT THE CHURCH IS THE ONE THAT’S FULLA HYPOCRITES.

I TELL YA, BELOVED – THIS COUNTRY IS HEADED FOR SATAN’S RUMPUS ROOM FASTER’N OL’ OKRA WINFREY GOIN’ THRU THE LINE AT GOLDEN CORRAL!

IF YOU DON’T WANNA BE A PERMANENT RESIDENT OF CAMP GO-TO-HELL, COME ON OUT THIS SUNDAY MORNIN’ FOR A DOUBLE-DOSE OF THE GOD’S HONEST TRUTH AT THE SWORD OF JOSHUA INDEPENDENT FULL GOSPEL PENTECOSTAL ASSEMBLY…JUST OFF STATE ROAD 23, ON THE FRONTAGE ROAD. THIS HERE’S THE REVEREND BILLY RAY COLLINS REMINDIN’ Y’UNS IT’S TIME TO TURN…SO YOU DON’T BURN.

JOHN BOY & BILLY – Y’ALL KEEP 'EM STRAIGHT UP THAR…

 

[motstraumen]

I have not seen anyone say anything about the legend-and witness of St. Augustin that Mary is Buried at St. Marys Chapel in Glastonburty where she was brought after the Sanhedrin persecution (Which Saul was party to) in the later part of the thirties C.E. Earliest Christian tradition said she lived in Somerset and died there as did Joseph and disciples of Phillip. The Cullee Bishops who supervised for centuries are “faith” descendants of the Gospel message brought by Joseph and his niece, the Virgin Mary. No one in the first 700 years of the church doubted that she had died and her blessed grave was on earth with body interned. Personally I think the doctrine on the Assumption is adiaphora.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have not seen anyone say anything about the legend-and witness of St. Augustin that Mary is Buried at St. Marys Chapel in Glastonburty where she was brought after the Sanhedrin persecution (Which Saul was party to) in the later part of the thirties C.E. Earliest Christian tradition said she lived in Somerset and died there as did Joseph and disciples of Phillip. The Cullee Bishops who supervised for centuries are “faith” descendants of the Gospel message brought by Joseph and his niece, the Virgin Mary. No one in the first 700 years of the church doubted that she had died and her blessed grave was on earth with body interned. Personally I think the doctrine on the Assumption is adiaphora.

So, she was buried in England? No wonder why you haven’t seen anyone mention this.

Where did St. Augustine say this? I thought all the early Church attested to the fact that she lived in Ephasus with St. John.

BTW, welcome to the Forums!!

 

[motstraumen]

Well, in answer to your never hearing about the tradition is another case of cleaning up what the laity hear and read to support a specific doctrine of the church. The traditions that led to the doctrine on the assumption were really gnostic traditions that held popular sway and eventually permeated the church, including the reformers for that matter. The traditions of England are ancient and Augustin, sent by Gregory to bring the Catholic Church of England into conformity with their traditions…placement of Easter on calandar, gregorian chant etc, attests the the longevity of the English Catholic Church. Their most sacred place was Glastonbury. You can read a lot about on the web, esp. Joseph of Arimathia. I am basing my assertion on a book called The Traditions of Glastonbury E. Raymond Capt. There are many other books out there that make the case. The fact is before it was common for any church north of the Mediterrian to be dedicated to St. Mary we have an ancient chapel, St. Mary at the Abby in Glastonbury believed to be built over the house she lived in and where she was buried. It was the desire of many in England to be buried near her, as well as Joseph of Arimathia. When Joseph returned to Britain with Mary and other disciples he brought his staff of Hawthorn, planted the staff and it grew the famous Silverthorn tree that blooms at Christmas and again in the spring. He also brought two cruets, one with the sweat, the other with the blood of our blessed Lord, Jesus Christ. as well as the Chalice of the Last Supper…