Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[dtms]

As a Roman Catholic, I would like to agree with Father Francis in the wonderful book by A.J. Cronin, The Keys To the Kingdom, who says, “The reformation made for a better behaved Catholic Church.”

I believe in intercessary prayer but Jesus is my lord and redeemer. He is both divine and human and Mary is not. Catholics pay so much attention to Mary saying she leads to Jesus that they forget that Jesus himself said, " Come to ME all who are weary and burdened. No one goes to the father except through JESUS. He never said we had to go through his mother.

There is a book (or a couple of volumes of books) the title of which I forget, by Hilda Graff which explains the history of Marion Devotion.

Asking for the prayers of the Saints is a wonderful part of our Catholic faith–just like we ask friends to pray for us–something I know protestants do. The saints are just our friends, alive in heaven. But Jesus is Jesus and I would like to see more frequently in our church the kind of devotion which many protestants have to Jesus–the boldness and the faith to go directly to him without the fear which some catholics have that they just aren’t worthy to go to him directly. He died for me and I assume that means that he loves me so much that he welcomes me to spend time with him without any introductions or intermediaries.

Dolores

 

[Writer]

As a Roman Catholic, I would like to agree with Father Francis in the wonderful book by A.J. Cronin, The Keys To the Kingdom, who says, “The reformation made for a better behaved Catholic Church.”

I believe in intercessary prayer but Jesus is my lord and redeemer. He is both divine and human and Mary is not. Catholics pay so much attention to Mary saying she leads to Jesus that they forget that Jesus himself said, " Come to ME all who are weary and burdened. No one goes to the father except through JESUS. He never said we had to go through his mother.

There is a book (or a couple of volumes of books) the title of which I forget, by Hilda Graff which explains the history of Marion Devotion.

Asking for the prayers of the Saints is a wonderful part of our Catholic faith–just like we ask friends to pray for us–something I know protestants do. The saints are just our friends, alive in heaven. But Jesus is Jesus and I would like to see more frequently in our church the kind of devotion which many protestants have to Jesus–the boldness and the faith to go directly to him without the fear which some catholics have that they just aren’t worthy to go to him directly. He died for me and I assume that means that he loves me so much that he welcomes me to spend time with him without any introductions or intermediaries.

Dolores

Good post!

 

[dtms]

I disagree… Words do mean things, and the propenents have of “Co-Redemptrix” often don’t understand the correct theology themselves. If many supporters can’t even inteligently articulate it, what does this say about the term? They often seem to be supporting it more on an emotional or cultural plain than a rational one. Here is what I wrote concerning language and the term–as found at the link below.

home.earthlink.net/~karlerickson/writer/id16.html

First, the term Co-Redemptrix is confusing and poorly reflects its own intended purpose or meaning. The language is wrong. The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary cites an early use of “Co-Redemptress” in 1865 by Dr. Pusey. As he was opposing its use, however, it is only logical to assume that the term has been in existence for some time prior to the 1860s. I was recently made aware that the best translation of Co-Redemptrix from the Latin would actually be as “woman with the redeemer”. The same student of Latin also noted that one of the problems with the prefix “co” in English is that it no longer implies a lesser or inferior meaning. Take, for example, co-star. The co-star is assumed to be less important than the star. While some supporters of the Co-Redemptrix title do appear to actually believe in an equality of sorts between Mary and Jesus, most certainly do not. They assert that the prefix “co” implies only cooperation with, as opposed to equality with. The truth of the matter is that in debating this topic online with fellow Catholics, this distinction is frequently misunderstood. Why should we be surprised at this, however? The “co” prefix can imply equality in words such as coextensive, coeducation, or co-worker. This confusion may represent sufficient grounds on which to nix the Co-Redemptrix term. If it were our intent to simply confuse and obfuscate the true nature of Mary and her Son, we would have succeeded here beyond our wildest dreams. Why would we want to adopt a new title for Mary which serves only to confuse those who hear it proclaimed? This is one of the simplest reasons opposing the new title, but also one of the strongest.

While I can’t buy co redemptrix or mediatrix of all graces, how about pro redemptrix and pro medeatrix? After all, we don’t bat an eyelash at the term Procreation. Each time I conceived a child which God created and into whom he breathed a soul, I took part in creation. But I certainly am not their creator. Maybe this is what Paul means when he says he makes up in his body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. I have always had a hard time with that piece of scripture. How can anything be lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Maybe he graciously allows us to join him in some way in his suffering (and in creation) making us pro sufferers, pro creators, pro redeemers, pro mediatiors. Meaning simply that in some way we can join in and maybe even in some way he arranged things so that our “pro” activities are part of the divine plan.

Dolores

 

[sosayi1960]

Can anyone explain to me why the title is so important to aspects of the church? Mary is the God-bearer. She has so many varied titles, why have one more to continue to divide Christendom? Why are people so obbessed with this supposed title? I really do not understand it. The church has so many problems as it is. Jesus is the one mediator, Mary is/was so humble, would she be advocating this? She would be praying for peace and the coming of His kingdom. I’m just hoping the Mary, in fact all the saints. Pray for the return of Jesus.
Peace to all!

 

[Writer]

While I can’t buy co redemptrix or mediatrix of all graces, how about pro redemptrix and pro medeatrix? After all, we don’t bat an eyelash at the term Procreation. Each time I conceived a child which God created and into whom he breathed a soul, I took part in creation. But I certainly am not their creator. Maybe this is what Paul means when he says he makes up in his body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. I have always had a hard time with that piece of scripture. How can anything be lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Maybe he graciously allows us to join him in some way in his suffering (and in creation) making us pro sufferers, pro creators, pro redeemers, pro mediatiors. Meaning simply that in some way we can join in and maybe even in some way he arranged things so that our “pro” activities are part of the divine plan.

Dolores

You know, I think that’s a remarkable suggestion. “Pro” refers to a supporting role, so I do think that’d make more sense.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Do any RC’s take issue with this?

I am quoting from, “Queen of Heaven” a book of devotions to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven, for private and congregational use. By the staff of The Leaflet Missal Copyright 1976 Archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis.

pg. 36

"To Mary, Co-Redemptrix
Christ alone merited our redemption in the strict sense; but Mary, by offering her son on Calvery to the eternal Father, and by suffering and almost dying along with him, may justly be said to have co-redeemed the human race insofar as she was able.

O’Mary, you are the spouse of the Holy Trinity and the hidden treasury of the blessing bestowed by God; grace has been given you without measure. **Through you Eve was raised up after her fall and Adam restored to Paradise. It is through you, O’holy Virgin that hope for peace has been given to the world, that men are called the servants, the friends, and the children of God. It is by you that death has been trampled under foot, hell despoiled, idols overthrown, and the knowledge of heaven and of your devine son spread upon the earth. ** We beg you to intercede in our behalf, that we may enjoy eternal happiness with you forever in heaven. Amen.

This bring it all back to me. It is kind of like speaking with a JW. You can go back and forth and quote scripture etc…but when you pull out some old watchtowers…games over. I believe the same is here. If this isn’t blasphamy what is?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

From what I gathered reading these threads was that God was prayed to through Mary - asking for her to intercede for use to God/Jesus.

Here she is prayed too and specifically asked to help and for help. Is she capable?

pg. 85

"Mary, Help me

O Holy Queen, Mother of Mothers. consolation and protectress of all Christian motherhood-Mother Mary, help me.
In all the trials and sorrows that come intio my day, dear Mary, help me.
…(it goes on with six other requests for help)

In all things, Mother asssit me! That I may, like yourself, with patiemnce turn all my trials into spiritual treasures; that I may grow ever more like you, the cherished Queen of the most Holy Family, dear Mary, help me! Amen"

I thought the Bible told us to be like Christ?

 

[Church_Militant]

Do any RC’s take issue with this?

I am quoting from, “Queen of Heaven” a book of devotions to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven, for private and congregational use. By the staff of The Leaflet Missal Copyright 1976 Archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis.

pg. 36

"To Mary, Co-Redemptrix
Christ alone merited our redemption in the strict sense; but Mary

, by offering her son on Calvery to the eternal Father, and by suffering and almost dying along with him, may justly be said to have co-redeemed the human race insofar as she was able.

O’Mary, you are the spouse of the Holy Trinity and the hidden treasury of the blessing bestowed by God; grace has been given you without measure. **Through you Eve was raised up after her fall and Adam restored to Paradise. It is through you, O’holy Virgin that hope for peace has been given to the world, that men are called the servants, the friends, and the children of God. It is by you that death has been trampled under foot, hell despoiled, idols overthrown, and the knowledge of heaven and of your devine son spread upon the earth. ** We beg you to intercede in our behalf, that we may enjoy eternal happiness with you forever in heaven. Amen.

This bring it all back to me. It is kind of like speaking with a JW. You can go back and forth and quote scripture etc…but when you pull out some old watchtowers…games over. I believe the same is here. If this isn’t blasphamy what is?Well, this sure isn’t, except in your (apparently) willfully biased effort to find something…anything with which you can make some specious case against the Catholic faith.

There is nothing in the above quotes that is contrary to either (properly understood) Catholic teaching or the Word of God. Blasphemy is defined as,

–noun, plural -mies.

1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
2. Judaism.
   a. an act of cursing or reviling God.
   b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.
3. Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

And since none of that is being asserted in the passage that you quoted…and is not found anywhere in Catholic teaching…your case is without merit.

From what I gathered reading these threads was that God was prayed to through Mary - asking for her to intercede for use to God/Jesus.

Here she is prayed too and specifically asked to help and for help. Is she capable?

pg. 85

"Mary, Help me

O Holy Queen, Mother of Mothers. consolation and protectress of all Christian motherhood-Mother Mary, help me.
In all the trials and sorrows that come intio my day, dear Mary, help me.
…(it goes on with six other requests for help)

In all things, Mother asssit me! That I may, like yourself, with patiemnce turn all my trials into spiritual treasures; that I may grow ever more like you, the cherished Queen of the most Holy Family, dear Mary, help me! Amen"

I thought the Bible told us to be like Christ?

Every request for help to Mary is nothing more than her intercession.

But let me pose this question to you. When an angel does a miracle in the Bible, does that take glory away from God?

When any of the apostles or members of the early church performed a miracle, did that take glory away from God?

So then if I, or any of my Catholic brothers and sisters, perform a miracle, does that take glory away from God?

God certainly does not need people or angels to do things or answer prayers does He? Yet the Word of God is absolutely full of instances where that occurs, isn’t it? Where does the Word of God say that those will end?

Since the body of Christ includes all the faithful departed saints who led holy lives and are still (according to Hebrews 12:1) both aware of us and able to intercede for us (Listen to this Bible study on the Communion of Saints) then aren’t you seeking to indict a teaching that is clearly supported by the Word of God?

 

[Proletarian]

From what I gathered reading these threads was that God was prayed to through Mary - asking for her to intercede for use to God/Jesus.

Here she is prayed too and specifically asked to help and for help. Is she capable?

pg. 85

"Mary, Help me

O Holy Queen, Mother of Mothers. consolation and protectress of all Christian motherhood-Mother Mary, help me.
In all the trials and sorrows that come intio my day, dear Mary, help me.
…(it goes on with six other requests for help)

In all things, Mother asssit me! That I may, like yourself, with patiemnce turn all my trials into spiritual treasures; that I may grow ever more like you, the cherished Queen of the most Holy Family, dear Mary, help me! Amen"

I thought the Bible told us to be like Christ?

Lets imagine one of your friends approaches you one day and says “malachi_a_serva…I need your help!” you reply “with what?” she replies “I need you to pray for my sick mother".

Are you about to tell me that you would say “I cant help you! only God can”? You know full well that your prayers WILL help and assist your freind and her mother.