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Newbie2
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Correctomundo.
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Memaw
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You’ve made up your mind and thats all there is to it., You totally miss the point. Your putting words in our mouths and twisting what the Church teaches to suit yourself. Ignore away kid, but like I said several times before, its your loss. I hope some day you will come to love the approved private revelations and respect them as “Worthy of Belief,” just as the CHURCH TEACHES us to do. I wonder how narrow you are on other things???
PS, please don’t tell me, I’ve had enough!!
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Eilish_Maura
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Please prove that the Church believes, officially, that ignoring private revelation is a ‘loss’ to anyone.
Please also show where the Church says that ‘worthy of belief’ changes takes away the option to believe and means anything other than ‘safe’ to believe in (if one wants to).
You feel free to accuse me of things but you are not willing to provide proof for your accusations while I have tried to be careful to draw on the explanation used by the apologists in Ask An Apologist.
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MaryJohnZ
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Eilish_Maura
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Please show where the CHURCH teaches the underlined section.
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MaryJohnZ
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Just the fact that the Church doesn’t ignore it completely but studies it and makes a decision whether to approve it or not…
if it wasn’t important to do that than the church wouldn’t do it.
The church is teaching by her example.
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MaryJohnZ
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The church doesn’t ignore them…follow the Church’s example.
If the Church ignored them it wouldn’t be living up to the role of Shepherd.
The church has always taught that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. I would say that approved apparitions are part of that gift and are given by God to build up the church in our time.
Notice I am talking about “approved” apparitions inorder to avoid the problem of unapproved ones. Since Fatima and Lourdes are approved apparitions I would say they were “prophetic”.
You can look through the bible and see what happens when prophecy is ignored.
Thank goodness the Church helps us with discernment and gives us the example of looking at these apparitions and appraising the messages.
If people were doing the right things then these apparitions wouldn’t be necessary and they probably would not have happened, But since they have, and since the Church has taken them seriously enough to write about them…and we have Saints associated with them, then it would seem out of line with the workings of the Holy Spirit to ignore them completely…
Fatima has already changed our world…just think how it affected Pope John Paul II.
And think of how many people have been cured at Lourdes?
The Church tells us to 'test the Spirits", not ignore them and these apparitions are well tested.
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ericktiu
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Let’s put it in this way, replacing HAIL to HELLO.
Luke 1:28. And coming to her, he said, “HELLO, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
Matthew 26:49. Immediately he went over to Jesus and said, “HELLO, Rabbi!” and he kissed him.
Matthew 27:29. Weaving a crown out of thorns, they placed it on his head, and a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, “HELLO, King of the Jews!”
John 19:3. And they came to him and said, “HELLO, King of the Jews!” And they struck him repeatedly.
I think as you read this it sounds funny.
I guess we can also give a good theory that this(HAIL) is a different level and use of greeting coz you will notice that the verses I quoted ex: John 19:3 “…HAIL, King of the Jews…” word Hail is followed with a respected title or a position "King of the Jews. If we go back to their time, the word “Hail” is used to address someone with a title or position like “Hail Caesar”.
In our time, this is a definition of Hail and Hello from encarta dictionary:
hail [hayl]transitive verb (past and past participle hailed, present participle hail·ing, 3rd person present singular hails)
exclamation of greeting: used to greet, welcome, or acclaim somebody (archaic or literary)
[12th century. Variant of hale1]
-hail, noun
-hail·er, noun
within hail near enough to hear a shout or see a signal (dated)
hel·lo [hə lṓ, he lṓ]
interjection, noun (plural hel·los)
adds ironic emphasis: adds ironic, sarcastic, or sometimes angry emphasis (slang) .
“He’s like, hello? who do you think you are?”
“I’m living my own life now, hello? Please mind your own business.”
[Late 19th century. Probably < French holá “stop there!”, used to attract attention]
Luke 1:28. And coming to her, he said, “HELLO, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
Matthew 26:49. Immediately he went over to Jesus and said, “HELLO, Rabbi!” and he kissed him.
Matthew 27:29. Weaving a crown out of thorns, they placed it on his head, and a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, “HELLO, King of the Jews!”
John 19:3. And they came to him and said, “HELLO, King of the Jews!” And they struck him repeatedly.
I think as you read this it sounds funny.
Halo Taliesin,
I guess we can also give a good theory that this(HAIL) is a different level and use of greeting coz you will notice that the verses I quoted ex: John 19:3 “…HAIL, King of the Jews…” word Hail is followed with a respected title or a position "King of the Jews. If we go back to their time, the word “Hail” is used to address someone with a title or position like “Hail Caesar”.
In our time, this is a definition of Hail and Hello from encarta dictionary:
hail [hayl]transitive verb (past and past participle hailed, present participle hail·ing, 3rd person present singular hails)
- acclaim somebody or something: to praise or approve a person, action, or accomplishment with enthusiasm.
“The press hailed her as a child prodigy.” - get somebody’s attention by shouting: to attract the attention of somebody or something such as a taxicab or ship by calling or signaling.
hail a taxi - greet somebody: to welcome or greet somebody upon meeting
“We hailed each other like long-lost buddies.”
exclamation of greeting: used to greet, welcome, or acclaim somebody (archaic or literary)
[12th century. Variant of hale1]
-hail, noun
-hail·er, noun
within hail near enough to hear a shout or see a signal (dated)
hel·lo [hə lṓ, he lṓ]
interjection, noun (plural hel·los)
- word used as greeting: a word used to greet somebody you meet, to answer a telephone call, or to begin a radio or television program.
“Hello. Pleased to meet you.”
“Hello, and welcome to the show.”
After we had all said our hellos, we settled down to eat. - word to attract attention: a word used to attract attention.
“Hello! Is anyone there?” - word expressing surprise: a word used to express surprise.
“Hello! What’s that doing here?”
adds ironic emphasis: adds ironic, sarcastic, or sometimes angry emphasis (slang) .
“He’s like, hello? who do you think you are?”
“I’m living my own life now, hello? Please mind your own business.”
[Late 19th century. Probably < French holá “stop there!”, used to attract attention]
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Eilish_Maura
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The Church says private revelation is not binding - if it was important the Church would not say that.
So is the Church giving mixed messages? From your two most recent posts it would seem the is Church is doing just that.
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ericktiu
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Halo Eilish Maura,
Peace.
Here my personal revelation pls see this link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213012&page=12
I guess in my part this dream I had made me knew that I was hurting Mother Mary and she made me come back to the Christ’s Church within His fence.
How I wish I could see her again. And I wish others would see her too. Just by seeing her in a dream l got a touch of heaven what more is Jesus.
Jesus bless you & Mama Mary loves you,
Erick Tiu
One thing more, the whiteness of Mother Mary’s dress is far from a white typewriting paper and if u see a white color you’ll say it’s white but there is something missing.
Peace.
Here my personal revelation pls see this link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213012&page=12
169.
And I know Satan CAN masquarade as an angel of light but one thing he cannot copy is the Holy Presence of God. And I’m sure I’m not deceived by this because a soul knows.I guess in my part this dream I had made me knew that I was hurting Mother Mary and she made me come back to the Christ’s Church within His fence.
How I wish I could see her again. And I wish others would see her too. Just by seeing her in a dream l got a touch of heaven what more is Jesus.
Jesus bless you & Mama Mary loves you,
Erick Tiu
One thing more, the whiteness of Mother Mary’s dress is far from a white typewriting paper and if u see a white color you’ll say it’s white but there is something missing.
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MaryJohnZ
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The church is not giving a mixed message.
I am looking at the word “non-binding” in a different way then you are, I believe.
I am saying that the word “non-binding” means that someone can get to the same understanding or belief through the formal Public Revealation of the church without private Revelation. So Private Revelation is non-binding as a source of finding truth.Tradition and bible will support any true message…and any true message would be contained in Public Revelation to begin with.
So, I am agreeing with you in that the church acknowledges that by saying Private Revelation is non-binding.
But the Church takes these supernatural interventions by God as serious enough to stufy them and even act on them.( John Paul II
consecrating the world to Our Lady at Fatima).
When Pope John Paul II asked all the Bishops in the world to unite with him in cosecrating the world to the Immaculate Heart
at Fatima, and some Bishops did not do that (maybe based on
private Revelation not being binding and they didn’t believe in it)–it must be your opinion that they acted rightly according to their consciences, I suppose.
But if the bishops were resisting a request from the Pope purely on some disregard for private revelation , I would say they failed in faith or love or in some way to sorrespond to a grace at a point in history, and that would be a sin of ommisssion in some way.Not to mention they were just being disobedient to the Pope.
But they could have done the same act of consecration just based on the Public revelation on Mary without any qualms or any tie to accepting Fatima…yet they did not do that…So without being “bound” to the Private Revealtion they could have acted in accord with it. But it seems like they were refusing to even consider the fact that Public revelation supports Marian devotion and intercession as well…
so were they sinning by ommission by ignoring what they should have known from Public revelation as well? Didn’t they have to stop and think about the consequence of willfully refusing to do something that could only bring good? Was it so hard to consider the possibility that God intervenes in this way?
The “non-binding aspect” for me is only in reference to revealed truth, not to a person’s responsibility to think about and reflect and even act according to what the message is illuminating.
I don’t think there is any meaning of 'non-binding" that removes that responsibility from any of us without some consequence…
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Eilish_Maura
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Where does the Catechism tell us someone has to believe in private revelation?
Let’s go to the basics and stop the twisting and turning to look at it in in different lights –
Where does the Catechism tell us that someone who opts to ignore private revelation is doing anything negative (missing out, losing, sinning)?
What pope has ever insisted/mandated that some private revelation had to be believed in by all Catholics when it was approved???
Let’s go to the basics and stop the twisting and turning to look at it in in different lights –
Where does the Catechism tell us that someone who opts to ignore private revelation is doing anything negative (missing out, losing, sinning)?
What pope has ever insisted/mandated that some private revelation had to be believed in by all Catholics when it was approved???
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Taliesin
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Memaw
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Oh ya, read this!!! Maybe not binding, but very important to the whole world.
Pontiff Presents Mary as Road to Peace During Homage to the Immaculate Conception
ROME, DEC. 9, 2007 (Zenit.org).- On the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, Benedict XVI presented Mary as the guide toward peace.
During his visit Saturday to the image of the Immaculate Conception in Rome’s Piazza de Spagna, the Pope proclaimed a “message of light and hope” to humanity.
After having been welcomed by the applause and cheers of the rain-soaked crowd of around 10,000, the Pontiff said that Mary “reminds us that we are all brothers and that God is our Creator and our Father.”
“Without him, or still worse, against him,” the Holy Father explained, “we men cannot find the road that leads to love, we cannot defeat the power of hate and of violence, we can never build a stable peace.”
Benedict XVI invited “men of every nation and culture” to welcome “this message of light and hope”: “They receive it from the hands of Mary, Mother of all humanity.”
“If life is a journey, and this journey is often dark, difficult and wearisome, what star can illuminate it?” the Holy Father asked.
Citing his encyclical “Spe Salvi,” published Nov. 30, the Pope spoke of Mary as the Star of Hope: "On our common voyage on the ocean of history we need ‘lights of hope,’ people who draw light from Christ ‘and who thus offer light for our passage.’
"And who better than Mary can be for us ‘Star of hope?’
“With her ‘yes,’ with her generous offering of the freedom received from the Creator, consented to the hope of millennia becoming reality, its entering into this world and its history. Through her God became flesh, he became one of us, he pitched his tent among us.”
The Pontiff concluded his words with a prayer addressed to Mary: “Show us the way that leads to peace, the way to the Kingdom of Jesus.”
At the end when the rain stopped, Benedict XVI spoke in French, addressing the pilgrims gathered in the Marian shrines of Lourdes and Fourvière in France on the occasion of the jubilee year of the 150th anniversary of the apparitions of Mary in the grotto of Massabielle.
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Eilish_Maura
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The quote does NOT support your claims or show that anything I have posted is wrong.
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Adhemar
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JFYI Scott Hahn is on board.
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CradleCath
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I agree with everything you stated in your post. We should never avoid proclaming the truth because of mankind’s disapproval, but strive only to do what the Father in heaven wants.
However, the very word co-redemptrix suggests that Mary’s sacrifice, bearing & raising & suffering with her Son redeemed us…it did not. The only sacrifice that the Father saw as worthy enough, that had the abibility to free us from eternal death, was the Sacrifice of His only Son. Mary cooperated with the Father by her actions…however, her actions did not redeem us.
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Adhemar
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Here is John Paul II from Salvifici Doloris 25:
It is especially consoling to note – and also accurate in accordance with the Gospel and history – that at the side of Christ, in the first and most exalted place, there is always His Mother through the exemplary testimony that she bears by her whole life to this particular Gospel of suffering. In her, the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakable faith but also a contribution to the Redemption of all. … It was on Calvary that Mary’s suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. Her ascent of Calvary and her standing at the foot of the cross together with the beloved disciple were a special sort of sharing in the redeeming death of her Son.
There is plenty more to find in the magisterial tradition, if one wants to look.
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Memaw
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With the spiritual organ of FREE WILL. You really do have a problem.
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Memaw
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Thank you Adhemar, stick around we can used your wisdom.
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