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pprimeau1976
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Wouldn’t radical feminist theologians typically turn their noses away from the virgin Mary? I always thought they were attracted to Mary Magdalen rather than the Virgin Mary.
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Goth_Catholic
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This is the kind of ignorance that fueled the reformation and fuels protestantism today.
Did you not read the thread? Or do you just not understand that Mary does all things through Jesus? People have turned to Our Lady for help in attaining salvation since before Our Lady brought forth the Scapular. Her message of which is that all those who wear it are forever thinking of her, and she in her is always thinking of them and helping them secure eternal life. She told St. Simon Stock that one day through the rosary and the scapular she would save the world. The dogma did not come out of thin air, Mary alluded to it in the apparitions.
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Paul_the_seaker
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ericktiu
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Yes proper terminology is important and must be clearly defined and be explained for ecumenical reasons. But almost every dogma that the Church declares the non-catholics still questions and rejects and in doubt of the authority of the Church to bind and loose.
I think St. Paul was not just describing Christians as co-workers and co-heirs of Christ he was compelling Christians(Romams 12:1). Just like also what Jesus said “so be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). Mary’s role was not just anybody’s role she was planned and chosen for our salvation by Christ. Like the title “Immaculate Concepcion”(conceived without sin), in this title the Church through the Holy Spirit knew that God being Holy cannot be tainted with even a little dot of unholiness, so Mary is sinless for her purpose by God.
“The Extraordinary Role of the Queen Mother in Christ’s Work as Redeemer and Mediator” i think this title is too long but friendly
and just to shorten this title is “Co-Redemtrix”.
I think St. Paul was not just describing Christians as co-workers and co-heirs of Christ he was compelling Christians(Romams 12:1). Just like also what Jesus said “so be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). Mary’s role was not just anybody’s role she was planned and chosen for our salvation by Christ. Like the title “Immaculate Concepcion”(conceived without sin), in this title the Church through the Holy Spirit knew that God being Holy cannot be tainted with even a little dot of unholiness, so Mary is sinless for her purpose by God.
“The Extraordinary Role of the Queen Mother in Christ’s Work as Redeemer and Mediator” i think this title is too long but friendly
and just to shorten this title is “Co-Redemtrix”.
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Paul_the_seaker
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I think that many who speak of the Co-redemptrix of Mary do not understand what it is that it represents. It does not mean that is the redeemer, but that she adds to the redeemer’s work her own. In a sense, the Church is a co-redeemer because it is going into the world to continue the work of Christ.
The best thing in my opinion is to think of Our Lady against the background of Eve. Eve was taken from Adam. Christ was taken from Mary. Eve committed the first sin and then tempted Adam, Mary initiated Christ first miracle at Cana.
If any Christian will read the Church Fathers they will find that this is a very early undertanding of Mary’s role in redemption. It is important to draw out the full meaning of the gifts God has given us in revealing the fullness of truth. We should not condemn what we don’t know or understand.
The best thing in my opinion is to think of Our Lady against the background of Eve. Eve was taken from Adam. Christ was taken from Mary. Eve committed the first sin and then tempted Adam, Mary initiated Christ first miracle at Cana.
If any Christian will read the Church Fathers they will find that this is a very early undertanding of Mary’s role in redemption. It is important to draw out the full meaning of the gifts God has given us in revealing the fullness of truth. We should not condemn what we don’t know or understand.
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ericktiu
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pprimeau1976
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I’ll second that Amen.
In addition, I am suprised how many people said that the Church shouldn’t reference Mary by this title because it would be confusing or too divisive. If confusion or divisiveness on part of the faithful was the benchmark of all dogmatic beliefs, we would probably have no Nicene or Athanasian Creed.
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Paul_the_seaker
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It’s great to hear from prople like you. So many Catholics just know the tip of the iceberg. If they only knew how our
Lady is praying for us all the time. She is constantly trying to make us just Jesus. Jesus gave her to John be his mother and ours too. She has a special relationship with everyone redeemer by Christ. I hope and pray that all of us will one day realize that
Paul the seaker
Lady is praying for us all the time. She is constantly trying to make us just Jesus. Jesus gave her to John be his mother and ours too. She has a special relationship with everyone redeemer by Christ. I hope and pray that all of us will one day realize that
Paul the seaker
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ericktiu
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I was one of those who left RCC because of my ignorance and trust in the Church. The problem here is TRUST in the Church. And I’m happy:extrahappy: because of the TRUTH about who founded the Church and it has been there for 2000 years.
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grammshart
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:banghead: The Blessed Mother is (or should be) for all Catholics the source of comfort, love, example of obedience and humility - and above all complete submission to the will of God. BUT she is not divine. My understanding of co-anything is that the two sharing a title are equal in all aspects. For centuries Catholics have revered and honored Mary and have taken her for their own personal intercessor in heaven. That she is the single most beloved human being of the Lord Jesus should be obvious to all who believe in the total human and total devine qualities of Jesus. Mary is his mother. At her table he learned his Jewish scripture and all the other things mothers teach their children. Above all, she gave Him her love, totally and without condition - as mothers are wont to do. Putting this ridiculous debate out into the public scene borders on the obscene. Those who do not know or believe as Catholics do, can only surmise from the rhetoric that we (Catholics) even theologians, are unsure of Mary’s role in the Church. Her Son is my redeemer. Her tears and joys are shared by mothers and fathers who love their children. She is our model of motherhood and an example for all who profess the faith in Christ of how we live that faith.
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onebreadonebody
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As stated earlier, I have reservations about the titles “co-redemptrix” and “mediatrix” from an ecumenical perspective. However, to be fair, it isn’t that they are incorrect. They can be treated in the same way that St. Paul treats his use of the term “co-worker” (1 Cor 3:9) and “co-heir” (Romans 8:17) for ordinary mortals like us. And the whole motive behind such doctrine as co-redemptrix and mediatrix is always about the prototypical nature of the doctrine for all Christians. Our Lady’s role has always been as a commentary (to borrow I think Mark Shea’s oft-used term) on Christ. The dogma has no anchor if not Christ himself. To us it would speak volumes about our mission in Christ’s redemptive and mediating role: not equals, but co-workers.
But as I still believe, the titles are not as important as the dogma’s substance.
But as I still believe, the titles are not as important as the dogma’s substance.
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soxfan72
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We have to be careful that we stay true to our faith. While Mary is properly revered above all others, except Jesus, she cannot be considered as Co-redemptrix. Our sole redeemer is Jesus Christ. He is our salvation. He even said the only way to the Father is through him. Even Pope John Paul II, who was very devoted to Mary stated this. Declaring Mary Co-redemptrix would lead some to believe she should be worshipped. While Mary should be venerated, only God is worshipped. Jesus Christ is our Lord forever and ever and our primary focus should be on him.
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bill7777
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This part of our faith is confusing to many others who seek honest answers as it is. There is absolutely no reason to make it more so by using such a title to define the role of this great woman. my suggestion is that we just get over trying to alter the past to make it more appealing to our particular viewpoints
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inchrist101
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Claiming that Mary has any ability to redeem us is the most blasphemous thing there is. Show me anywhere in the Bible that states Mary is co-redeemer. And don’t give me the messages of Fatima because I certainly have no regard for that. Are Catholics now going to change their teachings and tell everyone that they can be saved through Mary in addition to Jesus. I believe Mary herself states that God is her savior. If she needs saving then how can she save us.
Any teaching about co-redemption completely takes away the focus of what Jesus did for us at the cross. I don’t care how much Mary may have suffered emotionally at the loss of her son. It in no way can even begin to compare to what Jesus did. The prophesies of the old testament don’t lead to Mary they lead to Jesus exclusively. Jesus was pierced for our transgressions not Mary. Jesus tells us the path to God is through him and him only. Just because a Pope may have a high regard for Mary doesn’t make it proper teaching. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Drill this into your heads!!! I trust Paul more than any Pope.
Any teaching about co-redemption completely takes away the focus of what Jesus did for us at the cross. I don’t care how much Mary may have suffered emotionally at the loss of her son. It in no way can even begin to compare to what Jesus did. The prophesies of the old testament don’t lead to Mary they lead to Jesus exclusively. Jesus was pierced for our transgressions not Mary. Jesus tells us the path to God is through him and him only. Just because a Pope may have a high regard for Mary doesn’t make it proper teaching. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Drill this into your heads!!! I trust Paul more than any Pope.
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J.J
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Aside from your main point re: subject of so-called “co-remdemtrix”, care should be used when quoting a writer, contributor, source in “The Bible”, as an exclusive and solely exclusive authority and/or doctrinal teaching of particular theological subject matter. Let’s not forget that “The Bible”, as the collected writings, books, etc., are commonly accepted, were assembled by the Ecumenical Councils of the Church Fathers due to the large number of various written materials that were circulating in the early Christian world. Problem was, that some conflicted with others, some were outright heresy, some were questionable in authenticity, etc. As one goal, The Council of The Fathers established which of the materials would be collected into one unified, accepted, authorized collection - The Bible as we have it today.
There were/are many other writings which were not included into “The Bible”; they may be theologically interesting reading, helpful in providing insight, etc., but have not (for what ever reason The Fathers judged) included as part of “The Bible”.
My point here, is that simply because “Saint Somebody” is quoted in The Bible on a particular subject, or a passage from a letter to a straying Parish is lifted from context, that doesn’t necessarily make it part of the Doctrine of The Faith. Let’s not forget that The Bible isn’t the single, sole source of faith, and Doctrinal Belief. If, in fact, that were so, somewhere in “The Bible” would be stated: “This is The Single, Sole Source for Faith, Belief, and Doctrine for Christians”. It doesn’t.
SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
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Memaw
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I agree 100%, it is up to the Holy Spirit as are all thing pertaining to the dogmas or doctrines of the Holy Catholic Church. Jesus is the head of our Holy Faith and we can’t force Him to do anything. We pray for God’s Will to be done in all things.
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English_Prof
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True, Feminist writers find Mary Magdalen more attractive than Our Lady. Maria Warner, for example, prefers the Magdalen because of the latter’s sexual experience. Warner thinks that a virgin cannot be a role model for the modern woman. Warner thinks the Virgin Mary makes modern women dejected because she sets too high a standard. If you read the senior citizens of the Feminist in-group–and I do not recommend them–you will see that people like Mary Daly and Mary Radford Ruether reject a male Redeemer qua male. (Ruether, by the way, received this year’s Millstone Award from Human Life International; the accompanying citation used the phrase “giddy silliness.”)
I recommend an article in Theological Studies (2005) by Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B., “Feminist Mariologies: Heteronomy / Subordination and the Scandal of Christology.” See likewise Manfred Hauke, God or Goddess: Feminist theology: what Is It? Where Does It Lead? (Ignatius Press, 1995); likewise see Joyce A. Little, " Mary and Feminist Theology,"Thought (Dec. 1987).
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Memaw
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My, my, misunderstanding is a terriable thing. The above is full of misunderstandings about the Catholic Faith. why don’t you let the Catholic Church tell you what She really believes instead of hanging onto old, worn-out, beaten down, ideas many protestants have about what we believe. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it so.
Mary is never in competition with her Divine Son. She Co-operated in our Redemption by saying YES to God when He asked her to be the Mother of HIS son. If she hadn’t said “Yes”, where would you or me be today? And she co-operated with Jesus all the way to the Cross.
One thing I love about the Catholic Faith is it teaches how the Old Testament fits with the New Testament, like hand in glove. You would be surprised what you could learn about Mary in the BIble, if you didn’t have such a mental block against her. She is the Mother of your Savior too and I wonder how He feels about her being ignored by so many. As for the Pope, well Peter is the First Pope of the Catholic Church and Paul was his right hand man. What do you think of that? Let us pray.
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Michael_Mary
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I’m nit-picking. Why does the “no” choice not have “and/or” since the three reasons given are not necessarily equal or connected, accordcing to the posted responses?
I am voting “no” - but only because I think it’s unnecessary - certainly not because what other sects think of our faith is important. As others have said, Catholicism has plenty for critics to dwell on. And “confusing” needn’t be an issue. Much of our faith requires good catechesis and prayerful contemplaition. As for devisive - this is, for me a non-issue. And I’ll just say that much about that one for now as I’m not interested in promoting “debate” over it.
However, if the Church we’re to declare this to be doctrine I would accept it without hesitation.
Michael-Mary
I am voting “no” - but only because I think it’s unnecessary - certainly not because what other sects think of our faith is important. As others have said, Catholicism has plenty for critics to dwell on. And “confusing” needn’t be an issue. Much of our faith requires good catechesis and prayerful contemplaition. As for devisive - this is, for me a non-issue. And I’ll just say that much about that one for now as I’m not interested in promoting “debate” over it.
However, if the Church we’re to declare this to be doctrine I would accept it without hesitation.
Michael-Mary
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Randy_Fitzpatri
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Great question, Yes the Church should proclaim the Truth About Our Lady as Co Redemptrix, Adovate, and Mediatrix. when I became a new Catholic I had to learn right away that just because I may not understand a part of our teaching, that it didn’t make the Church wrong.Instead, It challenged me to study to show myself approved.
Thanks.RandyF.
Thanks.RandyF.
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