Mary Co-Redemptrix Poll

[Paul_the_seaker]

Many appear anxious not to offend other non-Catholic Christians. This is more than likely to due to a desire to be ecumenical. But as Pope JPII and Benedict have stated: ecumenism is based on the truth - We can be friendly to other Christians and love them, pray for them, but we can in no way cover up our faith to get along.

Perhaps some further thoughts on Mary might be helpful to those who still think that Mary was only the person God “used” to give Christ a boody. That’s all.

It is important to realize that Mary’s relationship with God is different than that of any other Christian’s relationship. She is like us as a daughter of the Father, but she is the Mother of the Son, and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. No one else can claim these relatioships with the Trinity. Considering these truths and their consequences, one cannot but admit that Mary played a significant though infinitely inferior role in our redemption than did Christ. To put it another way, Mary, like God the Father, willing gave up her only begotten Son for the redemption of mankind.

It is with implications of this type , that one uses the title of Co-Redemptrix. If some don’t stand, fine, they can in time learn. We, however, should savor the fullness of the divine plan revealed in Mary’s participation in the Mystery of our Redemption.

Peace
Paul the Seaker

 

[aaronlgates]

Perhaps some further thoughts on Mary might be helpful to those who still think that Mary was only the person God “used” to give Christ a boody. That’s all."

Sometimes good spelling is a VERY important virtue.



You also may want to edit your username if you can. No hard feelings bro. I am just a pathological spelling freak. I am hoping to get help with it someday!

 

[MaryJohnZ]

The title “Co-Redemptrix” is fitting and should be declared because it helps all of us understand our role as children of the Father. While Jesus won the grace for all of us, we need to be ‘conduits’ of that grace into the world. Mary was a ‘co-redemptrix’ because she perfectly co-operated with God’s plan and Christ came into the world through that co-operation. She faithfully accompanied Christ to Calvary and kept faith that He would rise from the dead. She was present at the first Pentecost and helped the Apostles as if they were her own sons. In this, she never said “no” to God and accepted God’s Will and her role faithfully. She interceded for the early Church and she still intercedes for us.

We, too, are given the choice to co-operate or not. This does not take away from the sacrifice of Christ but gives recognition to the participation of all members of Christ’s body in building God’s Kingdom in the world. Mary is the first follower of Christ as she preceded any of the Apostles in knowing Him and even in proclaiming Him ( her magnificat Luke1). In fact she becomes the first example of the perfect follower of Christ.

I believe that by proclaiming this title Mary’s Queenship will be fully realized and many graces will flow into our broken world to heal it.We will be doing God’s Will and honoring the “Woman” whose seed crushed the head of the serpent (Genesis 3)

YES! I pray for the day when this will be proclaimed!!!
It is the 'medicine: we need right now.

MaryJohnZ

 

[Paul_the_seaker]

MaryJohnZ, you are certainly right in your insights dealiing wih our Lady’s being the Co-Redemptrix. I agree wholeheartedly.

In addition to what you have mentioned, I’d like to add something else. It concerns our perception of our redemption. Most of us think that redemption is something that happens between me and God, or perhaps others who are believers. Yet, St. Paul whose year we are now celebrating drew a picture of the whole creation waiting for the total fulfillment that will affect every part of our universe. Isaiah also mentions something of this in his prophecy about Messianic times- how the lion, bears, cows and sheep will be able to live side by side in this new world- a world where there will be a new heaven and a new earth. It seems to be that the scriptures underscore the effect of the New Adam and the New Eve will have on creation. Being titled Co-Redemptrix will help bring the BIG picture into focus.

I pray and hope that it will, that is why I am for the definition. It makes perfect sense to me.

I’m glad to hear that you too are for it.

God bless
Paul the Seaker

 

[soxfan72]

MaryJohnZ,

All the things you said about Mary are true, and that’s why we should honor her above all the other saints. But I must disagree with you about dogmatically defining her as “Co-Redemptrix.” We have only one Redeemer, Jesus Christ. As I said in a previous post, he told us he is the only way to the Father. (John 14:6) Attempting to make Mary equal with Jesus would change the nature of our faith. Honor Mary, yes. Worship her, no. Worship belongs only to God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I am going to try to answer this as best I can because I know that there is a perception that honoring Mary takes away from Jesus but I believe this is a backwards view of things.

Jesus is Mary’s Savior and Creator as well as ours. But Mary is different in that she is His perfect masterpiece chosen from all times to be His Mother. As such she was made to be as close to Jesus as possible and certainly their hearts and minds and wills were in perfect union concerning doing God’s Will in all things. Just li8ke it would be wrong and not make sense to tell an artist that they are wonderful and perfect as an artist without noticing or pointing to the evidence in their master artworks, it is wrong to say to Jesus. 'you are a perfect Saviour and Redeemer" without honoring His masterpiece of creation, who is Mary, His Mother.
In fact she is a sure proof that He is a perfect Redeemer, because He saved her from the moment of conception and kept her safeguarded her entire life on earth. It was God’s grace that preserved her from sin. Mary is the great arrow pointing to God as Creator, Father, Savior, Incarnate Word. Her pregnancy is proof of the power of the Holy Spirit. The inheritance we received through her is the gift of faith in God’s ability to do all things…

Everyone of us is being formed by God into a masterpiece but Mary was always His completely.

To honor Mary is to honor Christ. When a follower of Christ insults His Mother, they are insulting Christ as well.

I read once that Christ made Mary “Queen of Heaven”, what ever can we do for her on earth that would even approach that? I also read once that anything we do to honor Mary is Christ acting in us to honor His Mother, just as He did when He was on earth.
If I bring roses to Church and put them in front of Mary’s statue, it is the Christ in me that does that…just like the little boy jesus brought her flowers when she was His mother on earth.

The two are not contradictory nor does it take away from Christ to honor His work. He created a perfect Mother not just for Himself but to give all of us a model of what we are called to be as
His redeemed disciples…as redeemed children of God…

So, they way I think of it is:
To think you can honor Jesus by ignoring Mary or denying that He
“did great things” in her would be displeasing to God in the end.
There is a reason for the words" All generations will call me blessed". We ADORE God above all, but our ‘worship’ includes everything that belongs to God. Mary was a human person who shows us what it means to totally ‘belong’ to God. Honoring her is honoring part of who God is.

GOD BLESS YOU!

 

[soxfan72]

I agree with you completely about honoring Mary, but worship does not include everything that belongs to God. Everything belongs to God. I don’t get where you are going with this. Jesus said "You shall worship the Lord, your God, him ***alone ***shall you serve. (Luke 4:8). Italics and bold mine. I understand and share the great devotion to Mary, but the “co” indicates equal. As Mary is Queen of Heaven, worship belongs only to the King of Heaven.

 

[Joe_5859]

MaryJohnZ,

All the things you said about Mary are true, and that’s why we should honor her above all the other saints. But I must disagree with you about dogmatically defining her as “Co-Redemptrix.” We have only one Redeemer, Jesus Christ. As I said in a previous post, he told us he is the only way to the Father. (John 14:6) Attempting to make Mary equal with Jesus would change the nature of our faith. Honor Mary, yes. Worship her, no. Worship belongs only to God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You are absolutely correct that making Mary equal with Jesus would change the nature of our faith and that worship belongs to God alone. This is preceisely why the title should be defined because this is not what it means.

Many Protestants already believe that Catholics put Mary on par with God and that we worship he simply because of the title “Mother of God.” Are they correct? No. And neither would it be correct to assume that from the title “Co-redemptrix” or “Mediatrix of all graces”.

I think many people get thrown by the prefix “co”. “Co” means “with”, but it doesn’t always mean “equal to”. One of the definitions is in fact “subordinate or auxilary”. It doesn’t mean that Mary is as much our redeemer as Jesus is. That would, of course, be heresy. It means that her perfect participation in His redemption is to be held up as a model for us all to emulate.

 

[lukewarm]

It sounds like an utter heresy to me, and the apologetics on the title are awful. “We’re all co-redeemers in Christ”… Maybe I should be called the co-redemptrix then?

I think if this was infallibly declared a vast majority of people would say “I accepted the assumption even though there is nothing in scripture and essentially nothing in teaching of the Apostles or the Church until about 500 years after Christ”, I accepted the term “Queen of Heaven, but co-redemptrix is not something I can accept, it sounds like heresy plain and simple.” I think a lot of folks would leave the Church believing it is teaching error.

Personally I think it is a heresy and that is why it has not been infallibly declared even though Pope John Paul II was a proponent of this term and has used it in the past.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

This is just a short reply as I have to leave for teaching and will post later.

Because God gave free will to men, not everything 'belongs" to God and even men can have divided hearts. Mary represents the one who did not have a divided heart…something we all work for.
She is the new Eve and in a sense the ‘new creation’ which we will all be a part of when God has finished perfecting us. So the Saints in heaven all do share in this with Mary but we are still here on earth in a battle ground area. Not everything here belongs to God…

So when I say we ‘worship’ everything that belongs to God I am saying that we do include in our worship venerationg of the saints and even holy objects and saints. Other objects and even people may not belong to God and may even be evil in nature. But if we totally adore God then everything that belongs to Him would be included in our worship of Him, although not all things are equal to Him. Even our honoring of Mary is not equal to our honoring of God, but it is inculded in it.

This is because God has the attribute of perfect “unity” …don’t divided Him in anyway…and separating Mary from Him when she totally belongs to Him is saying His house is divided…

Mary is the work of the Holy Spirit in herself…everything about her…

Jesus may be the Head of the Church but in a sense Mary is the neck…through her the graces flow into our lives. From the very moment she said yes…every “yes” that will ever be said to Jesus was present in her yes… every grace that was ever received by a person was present in the Christ who resided in her Womb…

I hope someone else who is better with words can explain this.

Giving her the title makes this clear.

GOD BLESS. MaryJohnZ

 

[Joe_5859]

I posted this on the other thread on this topic, but thought I’d post it here, too. If anyone is really interested in the doctrinal foundations for this proposed Marian dogma, I would recommend starting with:

• Mary Co-redemptrix: Doctrinal Issues Today

If you’re really hardcore, you can wade your way through:

• Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate: Theological Foundations: Towards a Papal Definition?
• Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate: Theological Foundations II: Papal, Pneumatological, Ecumencial
• Contemporary Insights on a Fifth Marian Dogma: Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate: Theological Foundations III

This should provide anyone who is interested with all the theological background they would ever need on the subject, along with all the quotes from popes, councils and ECF’s that provide the basis for this doctrine.

This isn’t pulled out of thin air, but is the fruit of theological development, rooted in the fact that Mary is the “new Eve”. I understand that the title can seem quite jarring at first, but if you read through the theological justification, it makes a lot more sense. Of course, that takes a bit of time and effort, but it’s definitely worth it!

 

[Joe_5859]

It sounds like an utter heresy to me, and the apologetics on the title are awful. “We’re all co-redeemers in Christ”… Maybe I should be called the co-redemptrix then?

Yes, but the difference between us and Mary is that Mary cooperated perfectly with God’s plan. None of us can make the same claim.

I think if this was infallibly declared a vast majority of people would say “I accepted the assumption even though there is nothing in scripture and essentially nothing in teaching of the Apostles or the Church until about 500 years after Christ”, I accepted the term “Queen of Heaven, but co-redemptrix is not something I can accept, it sounds like heresy plain and simple.” I think a lot of folks would leave the Church believing it is teaching error.

I think that is a big assumption (no pun intended ) to think that people would actually leave the Church over this. Even if that were true, though, the Church has an obligation to speak the truth. A lot of people left the Church over Humanae Vitae, but it is still true. Of course, pastoral needs may dictate the timing and manner in which it is defined, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. If it “sounds like heresy”, this is all the more reason to define it so that everyone knows exactly what the Church means by the term.

Personally I think it is a heresy and that is why it has not been infallibly declared even though Pope John Paul II was a proponent of this term and has used it in the past.

Personally, I disagree. To me, it’s not a matter of if it will be declared, but only a matter of when. Thankfully, it is not up to either of us! So, of course, we are free to disagree on this matter at this time and still both be good Catholics.

 

[lukewarm]

Personally, I disagree. To me, it’s not a matter of if it will be declared, but only a matter of when. Thankfully, it is not up to either of us! So, of course, we are free to disagree on this matter at this time and still both be good Catholics.

We can agree to disagree on this matter, I don’t think this ever becomes Dogma, if Pope JPII wouldn’t do it I don’t know who will. It really offers nothing in terms of our salvation. It serves no purpose but to further divide the Body of Christ and greatly onfuse the laity. I don’t think it ever happens, and if it does I would probably leave Christianity altogether, and I doubt I would be the only one.

 

[Joe_5859]

We can agree to disagree on this matter, I don’t think this ever becomes Dogma, if Pope JPII wouldn’t do it I don’t know who will. It really offers nothing in terms of our salvation. It serves no purpose but to further divide the Body of Christ and greatly onfuse the laity. I don’t think it ever happens, and if it does I would probably leave Christianity altogether, and I doubt I would be the only one.

You would leave Jesus and forsake receiving Him in the Eucharist over this? I guess I really don’t understand that. There is nothing that could get me to give that up!

You may be right about JPII. It does seem like he would have been the one to do it. Of course, stranger things have happened!

 

[lukewarm]

You would leave Jesus and forsake receiving Him in the Eucharist over this? I guess I really don’t understand that. There is nothing that could get me to give that up!

You may be right about JPII. It does seem like he would have been the one to do it. Of course, stranger things have happened!

Let me be a little more clear, I believe the Catholic Church is the only option for Christianity, no other truth claims hold water. Protestantism is full of confusing teachings, varying teachings locale to locale, Church to Church. The Holy Spirit doesn’t guide the Church to 30,000 denominations that all differ in doctrine and ALL claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit. To me right from the start it has no legs to stand on.

The Eastern Churches to me are like a Museum, at a stand still in time until they are reconciled with the West. They can’t even hold a council and clarify teachings anymore.

Therefore if I were to conclude the Catholic Church did indeed teach heresy I would have to conclude Christianity altogether is false. And this co-redemptrix nonsense is heretical, the idea that all of God’s Grace is dispensed by the Virgin Mary has no backing in Scripture or Sacred Tradition. This is the teaching of St. Louis De Monfort not the Apostles.

I swallow my tongue when I see old ladies praying and kneeling before statues, I wince when I have to read about indulgences, I accept the other two recently defined Marian Dogmas out of loyalty and nothing more. But this wouldn’t be something I could accept.

 

[Joe_5859]

Let me be a little more clear, I believe the Catholic Church is the only option for Christianity, no other truth claims hold water. Protestantism is full of confusing teachings, varying teachings locale to locale, Church to Church. The Holy Spirit doesn’t guide the Church to 30,000 denominations that all differ in doctrine and ALL claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit. To me right from the start it has no legs to stand on.

The Eastern Churches to me are like a Museum, at a stand still in time until they are reconciled with the West. They can’t even hold a council and clarify teachings anymore.

Therefore if I were to conclude the Catholic Church did indeed teach heresy I would have to conclude Christianity altogether is false. And this co-redemptrix nonsense is heretical, the idea that all of God’s Grace is dispensed by the Virgin Mary has no backing in Scripture or Sacred Tradition. This is the teaching of St. Louis De Monfort not the Apostles.

I swallow my tongue when I see old ladies praying and kneeling before statues, I wince when I have to read about indulgences, I accept the other two recently defined Marian Dogmas out of loyalty and nothing more. But this wouldn’t be something I could accept.

I appreciate you candor, lukewarm! Thank you for clarifying. If this ever does get declared dogma, I hope that you’ll at least read through the document/statement before making your final decision to leave Christianity altogether.

 

[Memaw]

I know that there are several Popes and Church Fathers are quoted in very explicit terms that there is no salvation outside the RCC… but I am confused with the VII’s ecumenical council. Are the teachings of the prior ecumenical councils included in the infallible teachings of the Church? How is teaching deemed infallible? What’s the process?

Please show me where to find these “quotes” from the popes and Church Fathers. When the Church Fathers were walking the face of this earth and writing things down for us to read centuries later there was at that time only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH, there were no others. It wasn’t till 1527 that protestant denominations even appeared on the horizon. Now there are over 35,000 different ones that disagree with one another on many major things.

Christ promised that HIS Church would never teach error, that the Gates of Hell shall never prevail against it. The Holy Spirit will guide it and has guided it down thru the centuries, till the end of time. If you would just read and really study the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. Christ gave HIS Church the Authority to teach in HIS name. Infallibility comes from the authority Christ gave HIS Church keeping it free from error. It would help you so much if you would research what the Church means by Infallibility. Anytime the Pope teaches the whole church on Faith and Morals, he is Infallible. Faith is what we believe and Morals is how we live that Faith. We can be SURE that what the Catholic Church teaches us will be free from error, which is more than most can claim. I find great comfort in knowing that I don’t have to depend on my own idea of what to believe or on what many different people have claimed I should believe

If only every adult Catholic would take a good trustworthy class of instructions on the Catholic Faith, we would be much better equipped to defend our Faith properly. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Such attitiudes are not appropriate to this forum and are highly unchristian.

Please stop making derogatory comments about another poster.

Peace
James

For sure I was NOT making derogatory comments about anyone, He was the one that said some things are better off left unsaid and I was just agreeing with him. There is nothing wrong with my attitude. Speak for yourself, John.

 

[Memaw]

It doesn’t matter if they were “interested” the fact is they did unwillingly co-operate.

And I will make sure I will go and get a life! Do you have a spare one I can borrow? Can I buy it off of you on ebay? Or do you think I am too “dumb” to use ebay?

Really, you should be a little bit more charitable with your words.

Did I say you were dumb, I don’t hardly think sooooo. I said dumb things were better off left unsaid. . The last I knew, people were NOT things.
As for comparing Mary to P. Pilot or Judas that is really stretching it. I have way to much love and respect for Our Blessed Mother to ever think in those terms. You might say if I fill my tank with gas, I am helping a thief that steals my car, get away with it.

 

[lukewarm]

Is Mary’s mother Saint Anne the cooperater of the Co-redemptrix, or co-coredemptrix?

Doesn’t Mary have enough titles? Why need to Dogmatize what is really nothing but wild speculation at this point?

I guess it’s pointless to keep repeating myself, I pray that this never turns into a dogma because it would flip my world upside down.