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Memaw
Guest
They can debate all they want, but when it comes to a final decision that is sanctioned by the Pope, well thats a different story altogether.
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Memaw
Guest
You have many questions and it would take an expert like Fr. John Corapi to answer all of them properly. You probably won’t accept my answers anyway as you already have your mind made up but I will try.
When the angel appeared to Mary, he greeted her with Hail, Full of Grace, Now if Mary was full of Grace, she must have been born that way and stayed that way. Angels don’t make false statements. There is sooo much more to this and we don’t have space to get into it all but if you were really interested, you could research it yourself thru Catholic Answers or EWTN. com. If you are Catholic, you owe it to yourself to learn.
Where in the Bible does it say she didn’t remain a Virgin ???
She was more than just the Mother of Jesus. She is called the Women many times by her Divine Son. Women meaning Mother of all. She is the second Eve. Where the first Eve said NO to God, the second Eve, Mary, said YES to God. That in itself should make us all LOVE and Respect her forever.
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Memaw
Guest
If it is difficult for you to understand why Catholics love Our Blessed Mother, just keep in mind it is just as difficult for us to understand why you do not love and respect her. She herself said, “From henceforth all generations shall call me Blessed.” Luke 1-48
Elizabeth was the first to call her Blessed.Luke 1-42.
Really, you make it hard on yourself by throwing up roadblocks. She is our loving Mother who said Yes to God and brought forth our Redemer. Jesus loved her more than we ever will, do you really think our little tiny amount of love is going to make Jesus jealous. He gave her to us at the foot of the Cross. If you would just set aside your previous ideas, you may find it in your heart to give her a real chance to touch your heart. She is a human being but she is NO ordinary woman.
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rtconstant
Guest
Actually haven’t they had a commission look into some of this already? Wasn’t some of the findings that even the terms themselves were so vague they were not really sure what they meant because the diffinition seemed to change depending on the writer/speaker?
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Joe_5859
Guest
If you know of any links or source to find the writings of this comission, please share. I’d very much like to see it. I mean that sincerely!
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rtconstant
Guest
Edit:
Here is a link:
campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/internationalmarianacademy.htm
Luckily this was posted by another user on a similar thread. Of course this doesn’t confirm anything one way or the other. Still I find it interesting.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Thanks for the link! It is interesting. Basically, the answer seems to be “not now, and if ever, more reflection and clarity will be needed first.” Of course, being a commission, the Pope could always choose to ignore them, but it seems unlikely without a grave reason. Paul VI ignored such a commission when he put out Humanae Vitae, but that was certainly a much more pressing issue that needed to be addressed.
That commission was more that 11 years ago, too. I wonder if there’s been enough clarification and reflection since then to look at it again? I suppose I don’t expect it anytime soon! 11 years is as a day for the Church!
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Memaw
Guest
The Church works under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If and when it is ment to be, it will be. But the Church has already always taught that Mary fully co-operated in our redemption from the moment she said “Yes” to God. Don’t know what all the fuss is about anyway.Thanks for the link! It is interesting. Basically, the answer seems to be “not now, and if ever, more reflection and clarity will be needed first.” Of course, being a commission, the Pope could always choose to ignore them, but it seems unlikely without a grave reason. Paul VI ignored such a commission when he put out Humanae Vitae, but that was certainly a much more pressing issue that needed to be addressed.
That commission was more that 11 years ago, too. I wonder if there’s been enough clarification and reflection since then to look at it again? I suppose I don’t expect it anytime soon! 11 years is as a day for the Church!
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Memaw
Guest
Just because you don’t agree with something, you would call the Church heretical and the Pope a heretic???
A heretic is a baptized person who willingly refuses to accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. The Church can NEVER teach error. Jesus promised that. Don’t you trust HIM. If you would leave the Church, to whom should you go?
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Joe_5859
Guest
I agree. I think the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary has some titles that are at least as “scandalous” as Co-redemptrix. “Cause of our joy”? Isn’t Jesus the cause of our joy? “Singular Vessel of Devotion”? What about Jesus? I do understand how these titles and titles such as co-redemptrix might be misconstrued, but I guess I also appreciate them for what they are: giving honor to the Mother of our Lord. Not to take away from the honor given to Jesus and God, but to add to it in recognizing the wonders He has done for Mary and all the world as a result.
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Memaw
Guest
PS, its never wise to ignore what the Church teaches.
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Taliesin
Guest
Why should any mere human have a Title at all? Including the title “BV”. Mary is like any OT or NT hero: a man or woman whose faith and obedience should be admired and emulated, but whose faults should be noted and avoided. That’s all.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Really? A list, please, (and scripture of course) of the faults of the Mother of God. Just so that we can ‘avoid’ them.
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Taliesin
Guest
Here are two. Should be enough. (By the way, the burden of proof as to her sinlessness is upon those who posit it, not to those who deny it.)
Worry. Luke 2:48-50
- When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
- “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
- But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
**Interefering **with the proclamation and living out of the Kingdom of God by trying to rein in the Son of God: Mark 3:21,31-35
- And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, He is out of his mind.
- And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
- And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.
- And he answered them, Who are my mother and my brothers?
- And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers!
- For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
Wow. Forgive me for laughing but, wow. Since when is worry a sin? Doubt is a sin. Worry is not. She never doubts her son. And how was she interfearing with Jesus? All Mark states is that “They sent to him and called them” Yes Jesus does say whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. Mary did the will of God. But really, I’d like to see how accurate the english translation is anyway. I wouldn’t be surpised if there is more to it, then this.
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Taliesin
Guest
I’ll forgive you for laughing. Why all the emphatic ‘wow’ drama? You may disagree, but even if I were wrong, it’s not a farfetched idea. It’s just one you disagree with.
Here’s some scripture about worry:
- Matthew 6:25 Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
- Matthew 6:27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
- Matthew 6:28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin,
- Matthew 6:31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear?
- Matthew 6:34 Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
That whole 2nd episode was one of doubting her son. She thought he was crazy.
She’s no ‘co-redemptrix’. She’s just a fellow disciple. My sister in Christ.
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Paul_the_seaker
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
I don’t see anything that says you should not worry about your fellow man, only that you shouldn’t be anxious about food, drink, and clothing. Christ was worried in the Garden before his crusifixion, and surely he did not sin.
It never specified that Mary thought he was crazy, only that she went with Joseph’s sons to see him.
She is thee co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and queen. She is our mother.
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ericktiu
Guest
Halo Taliesin,
Peace.
I hope this will clear things up.
Luke 2:48-50 The anxiety here you are referring by Christ’s parents are just normal.
In Luke 2:51-52 He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was OBEDIENT to them; and HIS MOTHER KEPT ALL THESE THINGS IN HER HEART. And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man.
Mary is full of faith and obedient and trusting to God these three are some of her characteristics just like her son Jesus. “Luke 1:38Be it done to me according to Your words.”
At the wedding at Cana we can also see how trusting is Mary to her Son and Jesus being obedient to her wish even it is not His time "John 2:3-5 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.” And He made water into the finest wine.
Anxiety is a feeling of worry/nervousness/agitation.
Doubt is to feel unconvinced or not to trust somebody/something.
Even the Lord in His agony in the garden felt a tremendous mental agitation but still obeyed the Father’s will =Luke 22:41-44 After withdrawing about a stone’s throw from them and kneeling, he prayed, saying, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.” (And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him. He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground.)
In these passage Jesus was truly sayin’ that those whoever does the will of God are my mother & brothers in order to educate the people around him, but, Jesus didn’t and wouldn’t:nope: disrespect His mother Mary(WOMAN) if Jesus disrespected the His mother He will sin and sin is His enemy just as the Woman is the enemy of the sin.
In this passage Mark 3:31-35 it didn’t say that Mary thought her son was crazy. She only went with Joseph’s son to see her son.
Just remember she is the WOMAN who is the enemy of sin.
I will not use the title co-redemptrix yet but i will use a this instead for ecumenical reason “The Prophesied Woman who said yes with the Prophesied Savior for the salvation of man”.
But if the Church which Christ established declare it as a dogma for the faithful to believe and accept, Christ will be done.
She is NOT a JUST person or JUST a disciple for us Catholic Christians she is mother of Christ and our Mother.
Godblessyou.
K
knightbvm
Guest
Well the problem with what you said is that the Church teaches otherwise–all the way from the fathers to the present day—Benedict XV in his Apostolic Letter Inter Soldalicia, 1918–says
“To such extent did she suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man’s salvation, and immolated Him - insofar as she could - in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ” (Pope Benedict XV, 20th century); [39]"
Pope Leo XII in Parta huinano generi,
“We think of all the other extraordinary merits, by which she shared with her Son Jesus in the redemption of mankind… She was not only present at the mysteries of the Redemption, but was also involved with them” (Pope Leo XIII, 19th century); [38]
Now for an early father----(I could quote tons more FOLKS WAKE UP WILL YA)
the words of St. Irenaeus: “Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a virgin … became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.” St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Adversus haeresus, III, 22, emphasis author’s
Now for our beloved Pope John Paul II "“In her, the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakable faith, but also a contribution to the redemption of all… It was on Calvary that Mary’s suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view, but which were mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. Her ascent of Calvary and her standing at the foot of the cross together with the beloved disciple were a special sort of sharing in the redeeming death of her Son.” [61]Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Letter, Salvifici Doloris, n.25.
I think I’ll go with the Church and her Vicars!!!
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