Mary Co-Redemptrix Poll

[JARVET]

Yes, three actually; Heavenly, spirtiual and biological. Mary is our mother in heaven, the Church is our spirtual mother, and our biological mothers on earth. Mary is the greater of the three, because she is the mother of other two.

Galatians 4 :

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

  “ Rejoice, O barren,
  You who do not bear!
  Break forth and shout,
  You who are not in labor!
  For the desolate has many more children
  Than she who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[f] 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

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With Love, In Christ Jesus, our Lord. Amen

 

[Taliesin]

Your passing judgment on Mary based on a few vague passages in a book that has been translated revised and re-translated for the better part of two millionia…

I’m not passing judgment. Just stating a fact. Based on one very solid, easy to understand, passage in a book whose veracity has been solid for the last 2 millenia. That passage is: Romans 3:23: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,…” Again, the burden of proof is upon the one who would posit a sinless Mary, not upon the one who sees Mary as a normal saved sinner. How such a sister in Christ could be turned into a co-redemptrix is beyond me.

 

[Taliesin]

Now I see. Your twisting things to fit your belif, rather disbelif.

Come on, now, you don’t have to get juvenile. And you don’t have to accuse me of twisting. That gets us nowhere.

If worry were not a sin, why did Jesus chide his parents for it? Let me be precise, as this may help. Before getting into hairsplitting, let me grant your definitions. By chiding their boy Jesus, they *acted *according to their worry, instead of according to faith, and this is what Jesus chided them for: “didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” You don’t chide someone for virtue.

 

[JRKH]

Come on, now, you don’t have to get juvenile. And you don’t have to accuse me of twisting. That gets us nowhere.

If worry were not a sin, why did Jesus chide his parents for it? Let me be precise, as this may help. Before getting into hairsplitting, let me grant your definitions. By chiding their boy Jesus, they *acted *according to their worry, instead of according to faith, and this is what Jesus chided them for: “didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” You don’t chide someone for virtue.

I’m not going to get into this too deeply, but how about this.
You are accusing Mary and Joseph of Sinning because they were "worried about their son. Why? Because he was not where he was supposed to be and he knew he was supposed to be there. So by the same stretch you are using, Jesus “sinned” by not being where he knew Mary and Joseph expected him to be.

James

 

[Taliesin]

Only mine was in a dream. She is so beautiful. A beauty so perfect, so holy. When you see Mother Mary it’s like seeing Jesus, …

I guess that’s why Jesus and Mary are called the “Twin Hearts”.

ericktiu, thanks for your concern for me and your grace towards me in an earlier post, but don’t you see the deception in this? Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

grace and peace,
John

 

[ericktiu]

ericktiu, thanks for your concern for me and your grace towards me in an earlier post, but don’t you see the deception in this? Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

grace and peace,
John

Halo Taliesin,
Yup. I know Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. Only one thing Satan cannot copy is the holy presence of Jesus.
I’m very sure I’m not decived. I guess a soul knows(automatically) which is from real the light and not.
My belief & love for Christ expanded more than ever. Because of this I see & know & understand the BIG picture of Christ family, His Church in heaven & in purgaroty(where souls are purged by fire temporarily) & on earth, His Church(Christ bride) & outside His Church. Such a mystery.
That’s why because of Jesus we become sons of Living God and we become Mary’s children. Mysterious but this is the truth.
Mary is so beautiful, you are so beautiful & we are so beautiful because of Jesus.

Have a blessed everyday.

Godblessyou.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

I’m not passing judgment. Just stating a fact. Based on one very solid, easy to understand, passage in a book whose veracity has been solid for the last 2 millenia. That passage is: Romans 3:23: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,…” Again, the burden of proof is upon the one who would posit a sinless Mary, not upon the one who sees Mary as a normal saved sinner. How such a sister in Christ could be turned into a co-redemptrix is beyond me.

Rather an invalid thought.

If “all” pertains to Mary it must also pertain to Jesus.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Come on, now, you don’t have to get juvenile. And you don’t have to accuse me of twisting. That gets us nowhere.

If worry were not a sin, why did Jesus chide his parents for it? Let me be precise, as this may help. Before getting into hairsplitting, let me grant your definitions. By chiding their boy Jesus, they *acted *according to their worry, instead of according to faith, and this is what Jesus chided them for: “didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” You don’t chide someone for virtue.

By the same thought, as James said, Jesus also sinned, which is why Mary and Joseph chided him.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

ericktiu, thanks for your concern for me and your grace towards me in an earlier post, but don’t you see the deception in this? Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

grace and peace,
John

Your speaking blasphemy. It is you who art decieved.

 

[Taliesin]

Rather an invalid thought.

If “all” pertains to Mary it must also pertain to Jesus.

No it doesn’t because it’s clear from the context of the passage that Jesus is the one who saves all. Reading on: “and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” So by your logic, not all are justified by his grace, since Jesus is not justified by his grace. Jesus is obviously excluded from the “all” in v. 23, by the context. It takes a twisted reading to try to exclude people from it. And then it takes an outside Tradition to put Mary in that excluded camp. Many blind leaps are required.

 

[Taliesin]

By the same thought, as James said, Jesus also sinned, which is why Mary and Joseph chided him.

No. They just thought he sinned. But they were reasoning and chiding from the position of their worry, not from a position of faith ("didn’t you know I needed to be in My Father’s house).

 

[JRKH]

No. ** They just thought he sinned**. But they were reasoning and chiding from the position of their worry, not from a position of faith ("didn’t you know I needed to be in My Father’s house).

This I gotta hear:
Just how is it that he, a 12 year old Jewish boy under authority to Mary and Joseph his parents, did not “sin” by failing to leave Jerusalem with them? But they did sin by worrying about him?

Peace
James

 

[Taliesin]

This I gotta hear:
Just how is it that he, a 12 year old Jewish boy under authority to Mary and Joseph his parents, did not “sin” by failing to leave Jerusalem with them? But they did sin by worrying about him?

Peace
James

So, Jesus sinned? Is that what your 1st question implies?

They sinned by acting on their worry: getting on his case. Otherwise He wouldn’t have chided them. How do you explain his attitude in the following: “‘Why were you searching for me?’ he asked. ‘Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?’” They were on His case, but instead of Him saying, “Sorry,” seeing nothing wrong with what He did He turns it back on them.

 

[JRKH]

So, Jesus sinned? Is that what your 1st question implies?

They sinned by acting on their worry: getting on his case. Otherwise He wouldn’t have chided them. How do you explain his attitude in the following: “‘Why were you searching for me?’ he asked. ‘Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?’” They were on His case, but instead of Him saying, “Sorry,” seeing nothing wrong with what He did He turns it back on them.

I’m not implying anything and I won’t debate the point becuse it would be pointless. The idea was to try and engender a little thoughtfulness in the discussion.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that you are positing Mary and Joseph’s “sin of worry” based on the idea that they were not acting “in faith”.
Therefore a failure to “act in faith” is, in fact, sin. Is this a correct reading of your position?

Peace
James

 

[Taliesin]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that you are positing Mary and Joseph’s “sin of worry” based on the idea that they were not acting “in faith”.
Therefore a failure to “act in faith” is, in fact, sin. Is this a correct reading of your position?

Peace
James

Yes. To further clarify, sometimes the act is to rest.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

No. They just thought he sinned. But they were reasoning and chiding from the position of their worry, not from a position of faith ("didn’t you know I needed to be in My Father’s house).

You read a lot into statements. You can’t interpret this as a reprove from Mary without “hearing” her voice. As it is, it is a part of any spiritual journey to “ask God” the reason behind His trials. That is not sin. It is part of the Psalms and scripture. Even Jesus asks God “Why have you forsaken me” from the cross… Was that a moment of distrust? Did Jesus sin at that moment?

In the end the response makes more sense as something the temple people needed to hear. Mary and Joseph knew the “Father’s house” was an affirmation of God being the Father, a fact they were well aware of already.

This is evidence that Christ knew His identity and was not
in the dark as to His divine nature. Some people today question that and say he only knew he was divine when the Holy Spirit appeared over Him at His baptism in the Jordan. Well, here we have proof that is not the case. Christ’s answer affirms the Holiness of Christ’s origin both in pointing to the Father as being God and also points to the holiness of Mary’s Motherhood by indicating to those around that she is the “SIGN” of ancient prohpecy which foretold that a Virgin would give birth…

Mary could not be that Virgen unless the Father to Jesus was God.

God Bless, maryjohn

 

[JRKH]

Yes. To further clarify, sometimes the act is to rest.

1. I do not understand your reference “the act is to rest”
2. Please supply your definition of sin.

James

 

[Goth_Catholic]

No it doesn’t because it’s clear from the context of the passage that Jesus is the one who saves all. Reading on: “and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” So by your logic, not all are justified by his grace, since Jesus is not justified by his grace. Jesus is obviously excluded from the “all” in v. 23, by the context. It takes a twisted reading to try to exclude people from it. And then it takes an outside Tradition to put Mary in that excluded camp. Many blind leaps are required.

Actually no it doesn’t. All it takes is looking at the Greek bible. Paul uses the word “pas” which means “all” but not “all” period. It’s used to denounte a great number. It’s simlar to when Jesus says

No one is good but God alone. {Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17}

Yet He also says:

The good person brings good things out of a good treasure… {Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45, 7:17-20, 22:10}

And this time agatho is the word used for good in both places. Of course Jesus could never contradict himself, but it shows that not everything in the bible has extremely literal meaning, rather sometimes Jesus and Paul alike are trying to make points not literal statements.

 

[Taliesin]

Actually no it doesn’t. All it takes is looking at the Greek bible. Paul uses the word “pas” which means “all” but not “all” period. It’s used to denounte a great number. It’s simlar to when Jesus says

No one is good but God alone. {Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17}

Yet He also says:

The good person brings good things out of a good treasure… {Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45, 7:17-20, 22:10}

And this time agatho is the word used for good in both places. Of course Jesus could never contradict himself, but it shows that not everything in the bible has extremely literal meaning, rather sometimes Jesus and Paul alike are trying to make points not literal statements.

You bring up an interesting point about “good”, and it makes me think. Thank you. My opinion of that conundrum is that God, the only Good One, makes us “good” when we are born again and His Spirit indwells us. But this is another matter.

I understand that “all” doesn’t mean “all”–you have to bring in context to help out. The context in this case is all men. Much less is there anything in the context to say Mary is excepted.

If she’s not a sinner, why did she rejoice in “God my savior”? What did He save her from?

 

[Taliesin]

1. I do not understand your reference “the act is to rest”
2. Please supply your definition of sin.

James

I probably didn’t need to bring that up as it opens the door for something not really on this thread. But here goes:

1. I got my definition of ‘faith’ from the late Dr. Gene Scott, who defined it thus: “Faith is action, based upon belief, supported by confidence.” The NT word for faith, pistis, is a translation of 3 Hebrew words: *chawsa *(to run to the shelter of a rock), *batawk *(to lean on a staff), *amen *(the state of inner certitude that automatically does the first two things). These are action words, but not just any action: they involve leaning on God’s promises, or running to the shelter of God’s promises. Which promise? Whichever fits your need. Sometimes the only action required is to rest and wait for God to fulfill His word to you, if you’ve already labored to enter into His rest (see Hebrews 4:11).
2. Sin is to fall short of the Glory of God. And Romans 14:23 says that “everything that does not come from faith is sin.”

Mary was saved by grace through faith through the one Mediator, Christ, just like the rest of us.